Men of Bellevue, Now is the Time to Stand

SHARPE INTERVIEW PT 2 AVAILABLE BELOW

Dear Readers,

For months, a small number of men have tried time and again to bring a number of concerns to the church administration, the deacon body, and the congregation. We have been intimidated, demonized, and quasi-excommunicated. We have fought as far as we can with the resources and information we have. We have brought you firsthand accounts, disturbing information, and stunning conversations. We have explained our intentions to fulfill the obligations set out in Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5. We have used this forum as a means to address the church and attempt to dispel harmful rumors.

For those same months a great many of you have had checks in your spirits similar to ours. You’ve had concerns about the direction of Bellevue. You’ve worried about a lack of civility, a bent toward delegitimization of opposition, a lack of transparency, a fear of, dare I say, hijacking. You, however, have not made your names known. You’ve hidden behind excuses of convenience and need, desiring benefit without cost—cure without pain.

You’ve been content to stand behind the shields of those with courage enough to make their individual names and voices heard. You have allowed these few men to absorb shattering blows and fend off vitriolic attacks, while you have sat comfortably anonymous and silently assenting as others do your work for you . . . and as others suffered for it.

To you, I say that time is ended. Today is the day when you will either stand or fall. Today you will rise up or be trampled. Today you will step into the light or withdraw farther into the shadows—and this perhaps beyond rescue. For today, I lay down my sword and shield. I have completed the mandate as set out in Scripture. We have brought you, the church, issues about our leadership that should concern you greatly. We have fulfilled our duty to church, man, conscience, and most importantly Scripture.

We can do no more than present what we know. Our few voices will not carry far over the sea that is Bellevue. We can warn but a few. You, however, have the ability to take up the cry. It is said in Ezekiel that the watchman who sees danger and remains silent is guilty of the blood shed from his neglect. We will not be guilty of such neglect. Now, the obligation is yours: this is your call to take up. You may remain silent no longer.

I do not know the future. My prayer is that Bellevue will be what it has always desired to be: a beacon of hope sending out its light and His Truth that they might lead us to God’s holy hill. And while we do that, we must, MUST, follow the words and principles laid out in Scripture. We must keep each other accountable, we must attend to the proper rules for confrontation with brothers, we must resolve our differences in the ways dictated in Scripture, and we must remain truthful and transparent. Nothing: not Sunday school attendance, baptisms, giving, or even souls saved—nothing excuses transgression of Biblical principles. We’ve been taught this for many years. Now, I charge you to uphold that teaching.

So today, choose your peril: slink into the shadow to a future of synthetic comfort and looming devastation; or rise, stand in the light, make your names and voices known—do that which hurts most in the moment, so that the future may be healed. You would never tell a man with what might be a tumor that he should simply ignore it because the examination, chemotherapy, and surgery might be painful. You dare not, you must not, do the same here.

I leave you with Galatians 6:9, “And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” We have not fainted. You have not fought. Now is the time. May we not fade quietly into the night, trading truth and accountability for the illusion of peace and solace. May the God who sees all that we do have mercy on each of us.

I bid you farewell,

Sincerely,

Josh Manning

Sharpe Interview Pt 2

Below is the second part of the Mark Sharpe Interview. I will not personally host comments anymore, but if you wish to weigh in on this interview, you may comment at http://msinterviewcomments.blogspot.com/.

Josh Manning: Thanks for taking time for us again, Mark. We left off last week with a bizarre story where a church member was said to be demon possessed by the administration. Then the administration reversed itself, and denied having said that. You said that story was just the tip of the ice berg. Now, I'd like to talk with you about the bulk of that ice berg: the financial information that you have.

Mark Sharpe: Josh, I'm convinced there are questions that must be addressed by Bellevue's leaders.

JM: Could you take us sort of from square one with the financial info, and shed a little light on the rumors that are floating out there?

MS: In my opinion, Bellevue started down a road that had led us to where we are today when Mark Dougharty assumed his position at Bellevue. Mark has surrounded himself with a small group of men that have over the past 5 years assumed a tremendous amount of control over the church. One could almost say that Bellevue is "Elder ruled" without any church guidelines actually calling for that to happen. A lot of the financial decisions are made without the knowledge of the church body. I think it's safe to say that a lot of financial decisions have not been known by the complete finance committee.

All of these issues have been brought before the leadership these past 4 months. I along with others have requested that these issues be dealt with to no avail. In a 3 hour and 25 minute meeting with Mark Dougharty as recently as 4 weeks ago, I was asked to either leave Bellevue and find another church to attend or stay and be quiet and drop these issues. After further requests to bring this before the appropriate committees and members, my request was denied. I asked to be able to address the deacons last month and was told that I was no longer a deacon and that I would not be able to address the deacon body that I love and have served faithfully over the years.

JM: That's a lot of information, Mark. Maybe we can break this down and talk about it one piece at a time. First off, can you tell us what sort of decisions are made without the knowledge of the complete finance committee?

MS: The best place to start is at the beginning. While we were without a pastor and Mark Dougharty was our leader, some men who surround him decided it would be a good idea to give him a whole year's salary in the event that our new pastor didn't want him to stick around.

When I confronted Mark about this, he told me "I didn't have anything to do with that. In fact, it was their idea and I had no decision it.” I asked him if he had free will to say yes or no. In my opinion, he should have said “Thanks guys, but at this time, it wouldn't be the right thing to do. Nobody knows anything about it and it's a nice gesture on your part but I just can't take it without anyone voting on it.” You might ask yourself, "What's wrong with giving Mark Dougharty a whole year's salary?" There's nothing wrong with it as long as the church knows about it. The deacons certainly didn't know about it, and I confronted Mark about the whole finance committee not having any knowledge of it. He didn't deny that the complete finance committee didn't know about the transfer of money.

It would be nice to do this for our Associate Pastor, and I'm sure the whole church may have voted to do so. What needs to be checked is the fact that it was that easy for a large sum of money to be spent without the knowledge of the church. Not everyone has the luxury of getting this type of benefit when they loose their job. In this case, he gets it if he stays or goes.

JM: And Mr Dougharty never gave you an answer or any indication why this didn't come before the church?

MS: He would not give me a response.

JM: Mark, who were the men who made this decision?

MS: I don’t know who the men were. He wouldn’t say.

JM: All right. Well, was this the only financial decision that the congregation didn't know about and the financial committee didn't have oversight of? Were there other, or are there still, financial decisions that fall through the proverbial cracks?

MS: I wanted to touch on something that has really bothered me since the first day I heard of it. As I've said before, I believe that a man is either called to pastor a church or he isn't. If God indeed calls a man to pastor a church, I believe that compensation should not be a reason for coming or staying. God will provide for the needs of all of us. With that said, I am told that our search committee offered Steve Gaines a compensation package that was on the level of our former pastor. The offer that our church made to Steve Gaines evidently was not enough for him to live on. Mark Dougharty did tell me that he didn't think that Steve Gaines renegotiated his compensation package before he accepted the call. He believed it to be after the call. Either way, does it really matter? Without the knowledge of the church, the finance committee, and at least 70% of the search committee (I’m told), we now have a pastor that is ridiculously compensated and the structure that was changed that allows him to set his own salary. I'm told that the only checks and balances that are in place now for the pastor's salary are Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, and whoever is the Chief Financial Officer of the church. (I believe we are now without one.) What we pay the pastor is not as important as the process that is in place to allow something like this to happen. For being concerned over this issue, I've been demonized over and over. Why not let the church know how much we love our pastor. Why not have more faith in the membership to let them know how we take care of our pastor. The question I have been asking our leadership is this; "Would it be embarrassing to our congregation if they knew what was going on with compensation inside the pastor and associate pastor’s office?"

JM: Mark, you just said that you were told many of these things. Who told them to you? Are they on good authority?

MS: Before I blew the whistle, I had to know the information was good. This information came from the office of administration that included the finance office at Bellevue. Keep in mind, I was the chairman of the insurance committee at Bellevue, on the executive missions committee, and very involved with staff members some of whom have left Bellevue in the past 6 months. I've had one of these men say over and over again that he will be glad to come into a room with the men involved at Bellevue who are responsible for these activities as long as there are men who are ready to find the truth and get to the bottom of these issues. I can tell you that I've been stonewalled and pushed away time after time. It's very frustrating. Just because someone says it isn't so doesn't mean it isn't so. There is a paper trail that will get to the truth. I've said from the start that if these things did not happen then "Praise the Lord." The proof would take about 15 minutes to gather the documents that would put these issues to rest.

JM: So you're saying that the head of finance at the church has given you this information? This is the man who is willing to sit in a room with legal authorities and the leadership and tell what he knows?

MS: Yes. This man who is no longer employed by Bellevue has stated that if that day ever comes, he will tell state the truth in all of these matters. I know this man to be a dear man of God. Nobody can imagine the pressure a man faces when standing up for the right thing in an ocean current that is coming at you. He who controls the platform has an incredible advantage to information flow—especially in this case where every fiber of your being wants to believe the office of the pastor.

JM: So, money is being set aside that the finance committee doesn't know about; and salary control for some of the administration, as well as oversight, is now out of the hands of the finance committee according to conversations you've had with this person. Is that right?

MS: I told Mark Dougharty in our recent meeting that to my understanding, the finance committee gives to the pastor's office now a lump sum of money to distribute by department anyway they want to. For instance, let's say one department had $1,000,000 set aside for compensation. The pastor could at his discretion give one minister half of what he wanted to give another regardless of the number of years that person may have served here at Bellevue. Mark Dougharty described the new setup to me. I also let Mark Dougharty know that I personally didn't like it because there were not enough controls in place. He told me that he didn't want the congregation knowing what he made. When I reminded him that most every SBC church in America knows what the ministers make, he let me know he didn't agree with that. I told him that I believe if the Bellevue congregation knew what he and the pastor made, they would be appalled.

JM: Mark are there other financial concerns? We've heard something about credit card charges that might not be entirely proper. Can you tell us if there's any substance to those rumors?

MS: I don't know if there is or isn't. It was brought to my attention and I went to Mark Dougharty and told him what I'd been told. I told him that improper credit card charges by the pastor were brought to him in the first couple of months of the pastors calling. Mark Dougharty was asked to address these issues and refused to do so after several months. When I confronted Mark Dougharty about this, he didn't deny it. All he said was that a recent audit that was done showed everything to be in order. I reminded him that Enron and WorldCom had just had multimillion dollar audits done that showed everything was fine. Most financial people know that there are different levels of audits that are done. In this case, I told him there would obviously be a paper trail to show otherwise. Just produce the monthly statement and the reimbursements back to the church. That would take about 10 minutes to produce. He informed me that wasn't going to happen. I told him I had heard that each month there was a long list of personal expenses. Mark Dougharty not once denied it. What conclusion am I to come to after a discussion like this? I also asked about a membership to Colonial Country Club that was purchased in Steve Gaines name and he said that was so he could get away from the church and have some privacy when needed. We have a wonderful facility at Bellevue with a professional chef that cooks wonderful meals and we have some lovely fireside rooms that can be used for privacy. I shared with Mark that I believe the church needs to know about these things. Why would we not want to share this with the congregation? If we can't share it with the congregation, we probably don't need to be doing these things.

JM: You bring up the country club membership. I had heard, though never confirmed, that this was part of the package offered by the pulpit committee. Do you know if that's true? Also, do you have any idea how that committee and Dr Gaines interacted before, during, and after he was called? In other words, were there "negotiations" about compensation?

MS: I can't answer that. This is a question for a member of the search committee. All I know about the interaction between Steve Gaines and the pulpit committee, I've gotten from Steve Gaines and his address to Gardendale on the night of his calling. In the past month with talk about the pastor renegotiating his contract swirling around, I've heard that the renegotiating went on after he accepted the call and not before. I still don't understand why a package similar to what our former pastor was making would not be close to enough for Steve Gaines to live on. That is worrisome.

JM: Thank you for not answering something that you don't feel you've got enough information to comment on.

You say that you've brought these concerns before the leadership for months. We know you've talked to Mr Dougharty, but were there others to whom have you talked--Dr Gaines for example--and can you give us an idea of how many times?

MS: I've talked to Dr. Gaines on two occasions in person and several more times over the phone. I've talked with Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, and numerous other current deacon officers. I've talked so many times in person and on the phone with these men that I honestly can't remember the exact number. I believe at least 15 times in the past 4 months collectively.

JM: You say that during some of these meetings, you've been told that you should simply leave the church. Is that correct?

MS: That is correct. Two men have said that to me numerous times. Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty. In fact, Mark Dougharty said the only way my family should return to Bellevue is for me to drop this stuff and act like it never happened. He said also that "I know this statement looks like I'm just trying to protect myself."

JM: Have you asked to take your concerns to the deacon body?

MS: Yes, I've asked that I have the opportunity to take these issues to the deacon body. They have refused to allow me to speak to the deacons. The deacons at Bellevue really don't have any authority. To the congregation, it may appear that they do but at Bellevue, the deacons are there to serve. Their main function is to counsel at the services, serve the Lord's Supper, and man the phones when people call in. To the average member of Bellevue, they need to know that outside of that, there really isn't any authority in the body that the current church government allows. I believe a lot of decisions inside the church are made hiding behind the deacon body. To the church, it looks like deacons approve everything when in fact they don't approve anything.

JM: I understand. Let me ask you another question, have you considered taking this to the congregation itself?

MS: The only reason I'm doing this interview with you is to give the congregation a way of hearing this. I believe the membership of Bellevue has a right to know these things and demand accountability. The accountability may come from the congregation and not the deacon body. It's hard for a man to take a stand when he is facing losing something but I came to the point where I was convicted to be more concerned with what God wanted me to do instead of what man could do to me. As I said earlier, this is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Nobody in their right mind would do this unless they knew for sure this was the right thing. I've got nothing to gain from this. In fact, my family feels like we've had a death in the family. Our church has been hijacked and nobody is willing to stop it. What my family has had to go through the past 4 months has not been easy. You have to remember Bellevue has been our home for 17 years. We were here long before Steve Gaines came. I've heard from so many members who have called us or sent cards in the mail echoing these thoughts. A lot of people know something isn't right but they know there is something out there.

JM: I'm so sorry to hear that Mark.

Thank you again for coming out with this information. I know you say that the deacon body doesn't hold much power. Do you think the deacon body will do what they need to do to build accountability into the system?

MS: I don't believe so. I love everyone one of these men. They really don't have any authority. Unless they hear from the congregation, I don't believe that will happen. Being leaders, they could wield some authority in the church but I'm not sure how many of them want to take a stand. It's hard to explain but I've been amazed at the men who I consider strong leaders just sit on the sidelines and do nothing. A person can either want to know the truth or not pursue it. I guess the easy road is to not know sometimes what the truth actually is. I don't believe God wants us to accept anything but the truth. I know that God is not going to honor any body of believers that participate in sweeping truth under the rug. I am praying that there are deacons that will rise up and search for the truth. I've said it before but these issues may not be valid but coming from the folks that are in these trenches and knowing that I've confronted these men and they haven't denied most everything I'm sharing—all of this leads me to believe there is truth behind these concerns. There is so much out there, it takes a while to let everything sink in because it's so bizarre when compared to what we have been used to here at Bellevue. Because of that, I think time will allow this information to sink in and men will start to get to the bottom of these issues. If not, I pray the congregation does. We've been operating for years with a pastor that had an incredible amount of integrity. He was a self-disciplined, self-controlled man you could trust. I don't ever recall an instance where he made me question his integrity. Our deacon body has operated for a long time with this level of trust for the office of the pastor. It's hard to not feel the same way.

JM: Well, I join you in praying that all of these rumors can be dispelled by the light of truth. I’d like to recap for a moment: Basically, what you have said here tonight is that you've found from the former head of finance at the church that large amounts of money have come under the direct control of a small group of men who are held accountable to no one other than the congregation (not the deacons and not the finance committee). These men refuse to disclose information about expenditures to that same congregation. When two were confronted, they told you that you should leave the church or be quiet. When you asked to take this information to the deacon body, you were denied the opportunity and told that you were no longer a deacon. Is this correct?

MS: Yes

JM: I think that information should probably startle the Bellevue membership. Let me ask you about something else. There’s been a lot of talk about losing staff members and gaining new ones over the last year. Rumor has it that these new staff members are coming in at significantly higher pay than the ministers that were already here when Dr Gaines took over. Can you shed any light on this?

MS: I asked Mark Dougharty if any laymen saw the mega-church compensation survey prepared in 2005. The survey had been done to provide direction for the 2006 Budget Planning Committee. I asked if any laymen knew how Bellevue's compensation compares to Southeast Christian, Willow Creek, and Saddleback (churches with larger budgets and attendance than Bellevue). The survey shows that employees at the highest level at Bellevue make considerably more than comparable positions at other mega-churches. I asked what was the justification to start Jamie Parker at the same amount of compensation that Jim Whitmire was receiving when he retired (after 30 years of service to the church). I also asked how Steve Gaines could bring Bill Street (former college roommate to Steve Gaines, son-in-law to a member of the pastor search committee, and on-staff minister at Gardendale) and Ken Hatley (former member of Gardendale) on board at salaries over $80,000, bypassing loyal staff members who have been serving for years. I also asked Mark Dougharty why Bellevue gave one of the smallest pay raises in the past 10 years (while giving is up) but three people didn't fall under that umbrella; Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, and Jamie Parker. When I asked this question, once again he didn't deny it happened. Bill Street and Ken Hatley I'm sure are great men but why can't the church know of their hiring before they are hired. Is it wrong to ask about these questions? Is it right for the church to relinquish any knowledge of new hirings?

JM: Mark, does Dr Gaines now have sole authority to higher and set salaries?

MS: I can't say what changes have been made if any these past several months but according to Mark Dougharty, there isn't any written guideline for establishing Bellevue guidelines for hiring and or firing. The salary deal is like I stated earlier. The pastor has the ability to pay anyone he brings in at any salary he wants as long as he doesn't go over the pool of money set aside for a certain department. Let's say the pastor says we don't need 5 ministers in this department any longer and we can do it with three. Then there would be a lot of money in the pool to pay someone new coming in. Mark Dougharty told me nobody on the finance committee knows what the pastor, associate pastor, minister of music, or any new hire makes. This information is from Mark Dougharty himself.

JM: That's incredible

Let me ask one final question: Have you been intimated by any member of the administration?

MS: That's a good question. Last month, after repeated attempts to have the opportunity to deal with these issues behind closed doors, a group of concerned members of Bellevue prayed about getting together to discuss these issues and see what God would direct us to do. When word got back to the office of the pastor, Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, John Caldwell, and Mark Dougharty paid a visit to my home. I live in a gated community with a "no trespassing" sign at the entrance. They came to my neighborhood unannounced and uninvited. I believe when you have 4 men come see you and climb over a fence when they could have called my home to open the gate that it's intimidation. After they could not catch me at home, Steve Gaines called my home at 11:08 one evening and told me I was "Hezbollah" and that I was going to personally be sending people to hell if I went to this meeting. I informed him that I didn't have the power to send anyone to hell. Standing in my kitchen with my cell phone speaker on, my wife heard the conversation as did my neighbor. I have to admit, I was shaken by the words I heard my pastor speak to me. I was shaken to the bone but reminded that these were not the actions of a pastor. I don't have to fear what man can do to me, but I do fear what God will do to me if I don't do what the Holy Spirit prompts me to do. I know this information is going to be hard for people to hear but God is my witness that I'm not making anything up. I pray for our Bellevue and the leadership that knows what the right thing to do is. I pray for the congregation, that God will raise leaders up who have had a check in their spirit for some time now and do the right thing which is seek the truth.

JM: Mark, I'm sorry that it came to that, and I think that should always be our prayer for ourselves and our leadership. Do you have anything else you want to add tonight?

MS: Josh, On behalf of the congregation that wants to get to the truth, we say thank you for the forum you've provided. Nothing else needs to be said other than pray for Bellevue, pray for Steve Gaines, pray for Mark Dougharty, pray for Chuck Taylor, the leaders of the church, and the congregation. Pray that nothing be accepted other than truth. Pray for people to do the right thing. One thing we don't have to worry about is the truth. God is Truth and I believe god wants the truth to always be known. I talk with you this evening able to say that every thought I've uttered has been the truth as I know it. I pray for anyone who has spoken about these issues if they knowingly made false statements or they don't want to get to the truth. For anyone who is a Believer, the Holy Spirit is convicting. Conviction can and will get deep into any Believer to where it's very uncomfortable if they run from it. I pray for all of these men tonight who are my friends. May God have mercy on our church.

JM: Mark, again, I thank you for coming forward with this information. Since it seems that you’re not being allowed to directly air these concerns to the church, this seems to be next best (though still entirely inadequate) medium for finishing out the mandate of Matthew 18 and 1 Tim 5.

Thank you for sharing with us from your knowledge. Thank you for your honesty and transparency. May God make us all men who will stand up for what is right. This information is now in the hands of the church. They may do with it what they will. May God have mercy on us all.

News from Bellevue Employee Meeting

Below is an open letter from Mark Sharpe reporting on a church staff meeting that took place this week. Apparently, during the meeting, Dr Gaines acknowledged having made certain statements about Bellevue Baptist Church to his congregation at Gardendale. He also spoke to the issue of the dream that was raised earlier this week.

Please be in prayer for Mark and myself as we begin our second interview this evening. Pray that God’s will would be done, that the right words would be said, and that we would be able to finish this evening.

Below is Mark’s letter:

Josh,

I wanted to give you an update on a meeting held this week for Steve Gaines to address the employees of Bellevue. This meeting raises additional issues I'd like to share with the congregation. I've been told by a deacon brother that Steve Gaines made several statements of interest.

Steve Gaines admitted saying the things that were reported on the internet (at savingbellevue.com) last week when he addressed Gardendale First Baptist the night he accepted the call to be Bellevue’s pastor. The portion of the video was available on the website for anyone to see but at the request of Gardendale, the video clip was removed. He told Gardendale that on the last meeting he had with Bellevue’s pastor search committee that told them all of the changes he was going to make at Bellevue. He told the committee everything he didn’t like about Bellevue and all of the things Gardendale was doing right. He also told the Gardendale congregation that he tried to “tick” the committee off to see if they really wanted him. He told the Bellevue employees he was sorry for the statements made.

I’m told that he also made a statement that (paraphrased according to the source) he never had a dream about this man. He said his wife and family was just now finding out about the dream and got very emotional at the employee meeting. (If readers haven’t seen the interview last week dealing with the dream issue, they can read it at: http://bellevuetruth.blogspot.com/2006/09/sharpe-interview-still-on-blog.html )

As I heard the account of what was said by Steve Gaines in the meeting, several thoughts came to mind which I’d like to hear Steve Gaines address:

· Why did he confess to the employees the statements made to Gardendale? If he was asking for forgiveness, perhaps he will do so today in church to the congregation.

· Did Steve Gaines actually tell the committee he was going to be making the changes? If so, why didn’t the committee tell the congregation before we voted?

· Did Steve Gaines ask Gardendale to pull the video clip off of the internet?

· Since Steve Gaines has been confronted over his statements earlier in time, why is he just not asking forgiveness? Is it only because He was exposed?

· On the dream issue, would Steve Gaines explain why or how Mark Dougharty told other staff members that he had a dream and described it in detail?

· If his wife is just now finding out about the dream and Steve Gaines was confronted about the dream issues back in May, why is she just now finding out? This issue has been brought to Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, and at least two other deacon officers as far back as May and June of 2006. If I was accused of such a bizarre story as this, I think I would share it with my wife and quickly deny the story.

· Why was the early request in May/June to bring Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, the staff members, and the member who was asked to be quiet into a room together to find out the truth refused?

· We have a problem because there are men whose lives have been affected. Someone is not telling the truth. We have men who have been compromised and now we have a pastor who says it never happened but refuses to simply find out who is not telling the truth.

· Why did Steve Gaines not bring this member of Bellevue into his office and ask him to stop saying Amen instead of dispatching others to take care of it?

· Do we not care about this man?

· Is this a cover-up?

Josh,

I appreciate your time today on this very sensitive and alarming matter. I am saddened by what is taking place but as I’ve said before, the truth is always the right direction to follow. Sometimes, it’s very difficult to deal with but it’s always the best.

Sincerely,

Mark Sharpe

Bylaws Progress! Good job Bellevue!

Many of you will remember that last week I sent a letter to Mark Dougharty, requesting a copy of Bellevue’s bylaws pursuant to the Tennessee state code. Today was the church’s deadline to respond. This morning I called the church, Mark Dougharty’s office confirmed that the bylaws were ready, and by this afternoon they had been picked up.

I want to take this opportunity to wholeheartedly applaud the leadership for this step toward transparency! Well done! I would like to take this as an indication that we are both heading in the right direction. I’m still not sure why requests dating back to March for these documents did not yield results, but at least information is starting to flow. Allowing the membership of Bellevue access to the church’s governing documents is the right thing to do.

Now that the administration has taken this first step, I would urge them to continue. There’s no reason why their show of trust in the congregation should stop here. I urge the church’s leadership to begin answering the numerous questions surrounding hiring and firing practices (after all, those who have been removed and those who have replaced them, are people who are to minister to us as a church body—should we have no say in who they are?). Further, I would urge the leadership to answer questions about undisclosed financial information—the congregation does have a right to know if its tithe and love gifts is being spent wisely in ALL AREAS, NOT JUST SOME.

Finally, I would urge that the administration carry out this first step to its fullest potential, and cease their opposition to holding a meeting of the congregation, at Bellevue, to discuss the direction of the church, answer questions from the floor, and put to rest damaging rumors. This is the congregation’s right, and it should not be forced to abdicate its role of self-governance to the deacon body whose job is not necessarily to lead, but to serve. Nor should it abandon that role and allow its leadership to operate without accountability and disclosure to the people in general. Leaders should only fear answering to a congregation if they have something they wish to keep from that congregation. We sincerely want to give the leadership the benefit of the doubt, but as secretive as they’ve been, it is difficult to do so.

Again, my sincere thanks to the leadership at Bellevue for, after six months of efforts, producing a copy of the bylaws. You’ve done the right thing. I’m truly proud of you. Now let’s keep doing the right thing!

Note: Now that a copy of the bylaws is available, I will work to give you all a summary of how they work to govern our church. Hopefully that will be available by the end of next week. I also hope to have the second Mark Sharp interview ready by very late tomorrow night, but it may be a tad later due to scheduling conflicts. I promise we'll have it up as soon as possible.

Letter to Chuck Taylor from a Concerned BBC Member

Response from Chuck Taylor to a Concerned BBC Member's letter below.

Josh,

I received an email from a “concerned member of Bellevue” and I believe you posted it on your blog site. I thought I would email you my response as well.

Dear Concerned Bellevue Member,

I know you are sincere in your comments and truly grieved in your heart. When one member of the body hurts we all hurt. It grieves me to know how you feel but my answers to your questions will not change your mind. We are all grieved by the things going on in our beloved Church but for very different reasons. You don’t understand why I don’t see what you see and I don’t understand why you don’t see what I see. You state that you have lost confidence in the Pastor Search Committee and that grieves me. When I think of the 9 people I had the privilege of serving with on that committee, they were the most humble, Christ-centered, servants of God I have ever been associated with. They gave up 8 months of their lives to seek God’s man for our Church. I guess when you say you lost confidence in the Search Committee because of the man we called, you’re also saying you lost confidence in Dr. Rogers since he said he knew all along Bro. Steve was the man. You refer to the search as “hush, hush, rush, rush”. It was “hush, hush” because we wanted to keep the rumor mill down at Bellevue and the Churches we were visiting. As you can see from recent events, the rumor mill is very strong at Bellevue. We were also following the same protocol used by the Search Committee that called Dr. Rogers 32 years before. To this day they won’t tell you where they went and who they looked at. As for “rush, rush”, there was no rush. We waited on God for 8 months until He revealed His will and, Scripture teaches, when God reveals His will you respond immediately. Was it a rush to give the congregation only one week notice he was coming to preach in view of a call? Maybe but we discussed the chain of events and their timing with Dr. Rogers and he was in agreement. Also, don’t forget one of the committee members was the previous Associate Pastor of Bellevue for 25 years and he was in agreement as well.

Another issue that grieves me greatly is your insinuations about John and Pat Caldwell. You obviously don’t know either one of them! They have served our Lord and Bellevue Baptist Church so humbly, faithfully and sacrificially. Your questioning their character is a perfect example of how evil this campaign is. All I can say with civility about that is you should be ashamed of yourself!

You are right a Church shouldn’t blindly follow the leadership of a Pastor but, according to scripture, it is unwise to oppose his leadership on grounds of personal preferences. If the Pastor was teaching heresy or had moral failures or was lazy and not fulfilling his calling, then you have a scriptural reason for opposition. But even then, you don’t go into the public arena and voice your concerns. That just gives the enemy the opportunity to discredit the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ before a lost and dying world. The issues you have with Bro. Steve are either based on your personal preferences or misinformation. Let me give you the truth about some of the accusations swirling around.

Lie #1, He has been accused of credit card abuse – A lie – Chip Freeman, the head of our Church Finance Office, reported to the Deacons there has never been any misuse of a credit card by Bro. Steve. Chip is the only one who would know if there was or not and he said absolutely not.

Lie #2, He has been accused of saying he had a dream about stopping a member of Bellevue from saying Amen – A lie – He told our Associate Pastor he woke up thinking about this gentleman that says Amen a lot and asked that he talk with him to tone it down some because it was distracting. Our Associate Pastor in turn talked with two other Staff members who knew him and asked that they go to him. Somewhere in that exchange they said he had a dream. If you want to know how Pastor Steve feels about dreams, read his comments about dreams in his daily devotional book for February 2^nd.

Lie #3, He didn’t like the way Bellevue worshipped and set out to change it to be like Gardendale. This lie came from a 3 minute clip out of a 50 minute video of Bro. Steve telling Gardendale goodbye. If you watch that video in its entirety, you’ll see how much Gardendale loved their Pastor and he loved them. If he was a conniving, money hungry, angry person like some Bellevue members have made him out to be, Gardendale wouldn’t have loved him so much and hurt when he left. Yes he preferred their format at Gardendale to ours at Bellevue but why should that be a surprise to you?

Lie #4, His income is excessive, some say $500,000, others say twice as much as Dr. Rogers. I have first hand knowledge of this and it’s not close to that.

You ask about the covenant relationship between Bro. Steve and Jamie. Yes, the Search Committee was told about it and it was no surprise to us. My personal opinion is God put those two together like He put Adrian Rogers and Jim Whitmire together or Billy Graham and George Beverly Shea. It’s very common for a Pastor to serve with the same Minister of Music throughout his ministry.

A lot has been made about 4 of us climbing over a fence to go talk to a leader in this opposition. It happened on the Monday (during daylight hours) before the Friday night meeting. We went out of love and concern for him and our Church. Matt. 5:23 is the scriptural basis for what we did. If he wants an audience with the leadership of the Church, he had the Pastor, Associate Pastor, Chairman of the Deacons and another Deacon leader on his doorstep. I repeat, we went out of love and concern for him and our Church. We tried to set up a meeting with him on that Wednesday night but he backed out saying he couldn’t get his group together. We had all the Chairmen and several members of the Pastor Search Committee, 2006 Finance Committee, 2005 Finance Committee and Board of Directors ready to meet with him but he said he could get his group together so he declined the meeting. If we knew then what we know now we would never have climbed over the fence and we regret any embarrassment that may have caused our Church but we didn’t have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

What is our Pastor’s vision for Bellevue? Win souls to Jesus and strengthen the Body of Christ. Maybe you haven’t noticed what is happening at Bellevue People are getting saved and growing in the Lord. It’s remarkable that some want to discredit or disregard the growth we’re experiencing: Worship services are packed, Sunday School is growing again, Women’s ministry is growing, I2 is huge and the soon to begin Thursday morning men’s Bible study already has 600 men signed up for it. All falls within the vision of Winning Souls to Jesus and strengthening the Body of Christ. How can you find fault with this?

I am sure you and I love Bellevue equally but we must remember it is not OUR Church. The Church belongs solely to the One who died for it and He has the right to put whoever He wants as the under-shepherd of His flock. I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt, Brother Steve is the one God gave to us for this time. If I knew who you were, I don’t even know if you’re a brother or a sister in Christ since you sent this to me anonymously, I’d pray with you about all this. I believe God will bring good out of this if we stay pure and focused on Him. That is my hearts desire and I believe yours as well.

Chuck

The following letter comes to me from a concerned Bellevue Member whose veracity would be unquestioned in the church and whose reputation is completely unimpeachable. This person's reasons for not signing is that the person does not want to quench any flow of private information coming to this person as this person continues to seek the truth. I respect that position and will honor this person's request. I find no fault in such a request, only shame that we have come to the point where it needs to be made.

Dear Mr. Taylor:

I have been an active member of Bellevue for over 25 years. I loved Dr. Adrian Rogers but I knew his retirement would bring changes and change can be a good thing. I prayed for the pastor's search committee and looked forward to the day we would once again have a pastor. I believe most of us were excited about Steve Gaines coming and welcomed him with open arms ready to love and accept him as our own. I was concerned about the way his coming was announced but I had confidence in the committee. We were a grieving church. We had gone thru Dr. Roger's heart attacks, retirement, colon cancer and untimely death. We needed someone to put their arms around us and help us heal. That did not happen. Almost from the beginning I had a check in my spirit about the things that were happening at church. It was not just the changes but the attitude and the arrogance of those changes.

I have checked four commentaries regarding the responsibilities of the pastor and the church in response to the pastor. I used the same scriptures you have used in email correspondence to others. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission that is required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his WORD and when ministerial instructions are agreeable to the written word, they must obey them. They have rule over the people; their office, though not magisterial, yet is truly authoritative. They have no authority to lord it over the people; but to lead them in the ways of God, by informing and instructing them, explaining the word of God to them. They are not to make laws of their own, but the people must search the scriptures and receive them not as the word of men but as the word of that work effectually in those that believe. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE FOLLOW LEADERSHIP BLINDLY.

Because I no longer have confidence in our pastor's search committee and many of our church leadership there are several questions I would like you to answer.

Why was there so much secrecy around Dr. Gaines coming? Why were the deacons and staff not told before the news was given to The Commercial Appeal?

If Dr. Gaines was a strong candidate from the beginning, why was Pat Caldwell on the search committee? Her son-in-law was on staff at Gardendale and is now on staff at Bellevue. What is his position and did you know of his coming from the beginning? It is interesting that her husband John is one of the fence jumpers.

Why was the church not informed of his coming in time to question Steve Gaines and why were we not given a biographical sketch?

Why was his coming such a hush hush and rush rush?

Why was his church protected more than ours?

Did the search committee know his leadership style was like a CEO and he would make decisions without congregational approval?

WHY WAS THE CHURCH BODY NOT TOLD OF THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN STEVE GAINES AND JAMIE PARKER YOU REFERRED TO IN DEACONS MEETING? We had no idea that the hiring of Steve Gaines would mean the firing of Dr. Jim Whitmire. Did you consider his children and grandchildren and the effect it would have on these families?

In what context did Dr. Rogers use the term follow and swallow?

What is Biblical about threats and intimidation to members who ask questions and attend a meeting regarding a church they love?

What information does Mark Sharp and others have that Dr. Gaines, Mark Doughterty, John Caldwell and yourself would break the law by climbing a fence with a no trespassing sign? Did you compare the fence jumping incident as no more than an EE visit?

Why did Dr. Gaines redecorate Dr. Roger's office when it had been redone shortly before his retirement? How much money was spent and who authorized it?

Did the pulpit committee inquire of Steve Gaines what his vision for Bellevue would be as pastor? What did you know of his vision and why didn't you inform the church before you asked us to vote on a decision that had already been made?

By the way what is a covenant relationship between two men?

This is an integrity issue and I would appreciate your prompt response.

A concerned Bellevue member

Cleaned Up Comments Pages

Ok guys, I've done what I could to clean up too-rough comments out there. I started to just purge them all, but then decided that they do provide a valuable resource. So, some of the earlier articles will have a lot of missing comments (some good, some bad). The later articles, however, should have basically a whiddle down version of the comments page, sans what I considered to be objectitonable ones. Don't worry, there are still lots of anti-blog posts to keep things equitable.

As for the idea of creating a best-of-the-comments post for the front page, I threw that around, but now that I'm trying to just keep an archive of the comments, it seems unncessary, especially given space constraints.

One final thing. If stuff cools down, we may turn comments back on and see how folks behave. But I just flat out can't have my inbox clogged with comment requests, many of which just let me know that people hate me before they even read what's written on here. So, let's see how things progress and maybe we can get back to some civilized debate in the days to come.

All the best,
Josh

COMMENTS ARE ENDED

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

After much consideration, prayer, and counsel, I’ve decided to pull the plug on the comments option for the blog.

The original intent of allowing comments was to give people a forum to civilly discuss what was posted here. To compare notes. To sharpen each other. To exhort one another. But I suspect many are now logging in simply to watch the muck slinging. This forum was never meant to become an outlet for what I would call “spiritual internet pornography”—the ability to log on, sin anonymously, and no one ever know about it. Such is counter to the accountability we want to foster in the family of God. I did not anticipate this turn in events, though given our fallen human nature I should have. This has been a failure on my part, and I apologize sincerely.

Some of you have adhered scrupulously to the original intent of the comments section. To you, I say that whether you be against this blog or for it, you have my deepest, most heartfelt thanks for conducting yourselves with integrity, uprightness, and Spirit-filledness. You, on both sides, have encouraged and sharpened me. I bless you in the name of Jesus, our precious Sacrificial Lamb and Coming Savior.

But some of you have not held to these ideals. You have delved into the muck and mud of the world, using crudities, personal attacks, and vitriol in your posts. This became abundantly clear yesterday. You should be ashamed of yourselves. You know better—you’ve been under biblical teaching, you profess to be Believers, and you know what Scripture says about our conduct. To you, I rebuke you in love as a fellow journeyman with Christ.

On this note, I must apologize to my audience for allowing some of these comments to slip through. After reading pages of vitriolic comments I reject, some comments that still contain things they shouldn’t, appear rather mild and make it through. I learned this after hearing over the phone of two comments I didn’t even know had made it out. Further confounding the situation is the fact that I simply do not have time to completely read hundreds of comments. These two factors, however, do not excuse my allowing certain things to get through which should not have. And for this I beg your forgiveness and pardon.

Finally, all of this said, I will be deactivating the Comment feature presently. I will save certain of the more outstanding comments (please don’t be offended if I don’t take yours, it’s just that we’ve got limited space on the front page), and display them in post form on the front page. These will be standards to look to as we discuss in the church and amongst ourselves the recent goings on at Bellevue.

This blog will continue to host interviews, updates on correspondence, and other relevant materials—updated as frequently as it is now. It will stay above the board, filled with integrity to the best of my ability, and Christ-honoring. What’s been happening in the comments section has not done these things, and that ends now.

Deacon Board Member Denies Request

The Bellevue Deacon Board Member I’ve been corresponding with has denied my request (see below) for his permission to post his emails containing answers to my questions. His denial was based on the fact that he is extremely opposed to “what you’re [I’m] doing” and the “discord you [I] am sowing amongst the brethren.” He also conveyed to me another “warning” that I’m not involved in a game.

I will continue to post commentary with necessary quotes from our conversations, but refrain from posting his correspondence in whole, this because the leadership's ideas on church governance must be made public knowledge and I wish to respect his wishes as much as possible while continuing to provide needful information to the Bellevue family.

Again I would ask why these men do not want their ideas known on church governance? Why should we not know what these men who lead us think?

As a final note, this Deacon Board Member suggested that I take the time I’m spending to blog these things and instead go win souls for Jesus.

To this I responded saying,

From: Joshua H. Manning
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:31 AM
To: ******
Subject: RE: Permission

Dear Mr *****,

I understand your position and regret that I won’t be able contextualize your quotes. As to the winning people to Christ comment, you know that’s as hollow as saying, “Instead of reading your Bible you should go win the lost.” Like reading the Word, Scripture commands us both to exercise church discipline and win the lost. As Pastor used to say, when you take part of the truth and make it all of the truth it becomes an untruth. I’m not accusing you of lying in any way, just using a bad argument.

Sincerely,

Josh

My original request for permission to publish this Deacon Board Member’s answers to my questions:

From: Joshua H. Manning
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:33 PM
To: *******
Subject: Permission

Dear Mr ******,

I would like to ask your permission to post the other two email correspondences we had, dated 8/30 and 8/31. I am preparing statements concerning those correspondences and would like to post your emails with them to, again, prevent me from taking anything you said out of context.

Sincerely,

Josh

SHARPE INTERVIEW STILL ON BLOG

Mark Sharpe's interview about firsthand information is still available. Either scroll down this page or click the link below. The next interview is scheduled for late this week.


http://bellevuetruth.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-record-firsthand-information.html

Answers to Objections to this Blog

Ok folks, the objections to this blog I’m hearing more than any other right now are that Dr Gaines may not have wronged me personally and that this blog is airing our spiritual dirty laundry before the world. I'm afraid some folks have erred in the truth, wishing truly wonderful things about keeping this quiet; but not realizing the necessary negative counter-parts of those wishes. Let’s take a look at those:

We know from Matthew 18 how we are to go to a brother who has wronged us. The men who claim to have been wronged by Dr Gaines (their claims of his sin against themselves and others of his congregation) have tried to deal with these issues straight down the line of Matthew 18. I will point out that the last verse (17) of that passage says, “And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” These men have been unable to tell it to the church because the leadership at the church will not provide the forum to do it.

Now the question comes: Have I been personally wronged by Dr Gaines. That question is a non sequitor when used as an attempt to discredit my hosting of this blog. To condemn me and the blog for hosting this information when I’ve allegedly not been wronged would be the same as condemning a man under the same circumstance for offering his home as the meeting spot for these men to address their concerns to the church. Perhaps he was not wronged himself, but nothing scripturally precludes him from offering to host the church to hear what the men claiming to be wronged have to say. Going further, it may be argued that by refusing to answer these charges, the administration has sinned against the entire flock—myself included. I do not at this point allege this.

Of course, the next step in arguing against the blog is to say that I am airing our dirty laundry for the world to see and that that is wrong. I will ask a couple of questions here and then make a couple of direct points:

Question 1: If this blog could be restricted to only Bellevue members, would the information contained on it be kept within that circle? I believe the answer to that is “not a chance.”

Question 2: If this were not a blog but a meeting of the entire church in the church building, would the information distributed here be contained within the body present at that meeting? Again, absolutely not.

But we do know that holding such a meeting would comport exactly with Matthew 18. I submit, and will continue to state, that this blog simply constitutes a meeting place for the people of Bellevue. We know that if we had a churchwide meeting at 2000 Appling Road (which by the way was forbidden by the leadership weeks ago), members of the world would get in there too. We would not be able to call roll. We would not be able to ensure that everyone was a member. This forum is no different.

Statement 1: I have made every effort to conceal this blog from those who should not be near it. The blog is not registered on the normal blog lists so by far the easiest way to get to it is to either type in the address directly or click the link on savingbellevue.com.

Statement 2: The only scripture I can find that would speak to not allowing these things in the public is that of 1 Cor. 6:1-8. I truly believe this Scripture does not forbid the coincidental revelation of church discipline issues into the world (after all, should the world never know how we deal with those who transgress without repentance?) but it does forbid the church to allow a secular person to render judgement (legal judgement) in church matters. This, I believe, an incorrect point people both draw from this passage and are using to question the legitimacy of this blog. I believe the point being incorrect is validated by 1 Cor. 5:12-13; 6:2-7. You may disagree, but I believe this interpretation is within the normal parameters of legitimate scriptural interpretation (ie there’s nothing heretical there, only debatable). Further, I am not condoning actually outsting someone form fellowship via this blog. That would clearly be contrary to 1 Cor 5:4-5.

Going furter, I would point out that the onus isn’t placed on the church to avoid discipline so that our reputation will be preserved in the view of the world (1 Cor 5:1-11: does anyone think that after the exercise of what’s prescribed in that passage, the world wouldn’t find out?) (And again, should the world think, having never seen it, that we do not discipline our own?). However, the onus is placed on individual believers to avoid sin so that their behavior will not hurt the church in the world’s eyes (Titus 2:7-8). Make no mistake: It is not the other way around.

That said, we should never sacrifice obedience to preserve our reputation to the world. Nor should we ever worry that our obedience will put off the world. Isn’t that what any number of men whom have filled Bellevue’s pulpit have always said: we are to be a different people?

One last note: 1 Tim 5:20 give us certain conditions and once those conditions are met, we must rebuke elders who sin “before all.”

Now, some thoughts on truth from the man, along whom with my father, I most respect in this world:

• It’s better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie.
• It’s better to speak the truth that hurts then heals than falsehood that comforts then kills.
• It’s better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie.
• It’s better to stand alone with the truth than to be wrong with the multitude.

And it's time for a latin signoff for the evening that relates to these objections: Manet Mansuraque Est: As it is, It shall remain!


Contextualized Cited Scriptures:

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote
unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Titus 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; 10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Dr Gaines' shares his thoughts on blogs

Below is an audio clip from Sunday Evening's (9-3-06) service at Bellevue, where Dr Gaines shared his thoughts on blogging with those present. Make of this what you will. All I can say is that there are some very, very respectable people in this world who blog.

Click the play button below for clip of Dr Gaines' specific comments on bloggers and blogging

****BUTTON REMOVED FOR CONCERN OVER COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT SHUTDOWN SIMILAR TO GARDENDALE VIDEO***

***TRANSCRIPT***

"Dr Rogers used to tell me, he said, ‘Steve, you know that some people don’t like me.’ I said, ‘Some people don’t like Dr Rogers?’ Some people didn’t like Jesus. I tell you if Jesus today was here today (sic) he wouldn’t get flogged maybe but he would get blogged. I think I’d take a flogging before a bloggin, amen? And if you don’t know what a blog is give thanks! Gives every kook in the world the ability to talk ugly about people without telling who they are: that’s a coward’s way! But you’ve got to forgive people."

Full Sermon: Click here. Blogging comments are 48 minutes in.

***ON THE RECORD: FIRSTHAND INFORMATION***

Finally! We have first hand information. Below is the first in what promises to be a lengthy multi-part interview series with Bellevue Deacon Mark Sharpe. I hope to have the next interview available as soon as possible, but I hope more that the next interview will be unnecessary.

In this first interview, conducted Sunday evening (9-3-06), I asked Mark to take us all back, using his firsthand knowledge, to the first incident that really impressed upon him a specific need for truth, transparency, and accountability in our administration. This is both a singularly bizarre story and the string that began to unravel the sweater.

(TO EMAIL THIS STORY TO A FRIEND, SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS INTERVIEW, FIND THE ENVELOPE NEXT TO THE WORD "COMMENTS," CLICK THE ENVELOPE, AND ENTER THE ADDRESS YOU WANT IT SENT TO.)


Mark Sharpe Interview #1 (9-3-06)

Josh Manning: Rumors have been swirling around Bellevue Baptist Church for months now. Many of you have heard whispers and concerns from people you know at the church. Well, tonight we hope to begin putting rumors to rest and bringing answers to light. To help do that I'll be speaking with Mark Sharpe.

Welcome Mark. Thank you for taking time away from your family and work to help us begin clearing away this confusion.

Mark Sharpe: Thanks Josh. I'm glad to be available but saddened that we are having to do this.

JM: Mark, before we get started, could you just share with us a little bit about yourself: how long you've been at Bellevue, what parts of the church you've participated in, and, really, I think we'd all like to know why you're willing to put your name on the line and come forward the firsthand information you have.

MS: My wife and I joined Bellevue in 1989. We have two teenage children who have both been saved at Bellevue. God has blessed our family over the years much more than we deserve. God has also blessed me by allowing me to be involved in many areas of the church. I've taught Adult Bible Fellowship for many years, been involved in EE, taught Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby for numerous years, led or gone on 8 foreign mission trips to Nicaragua, Brazil, China, and India. Our family has also had the opportunity to be involved in local missions by being part of a group that has ministered to the same assisted living home for the past 6 years, been a deacon, a deacon officer, served on the deacon nominating interview committee, served on the executive missions committee, been the chairman of the insurance committee, chaired the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary Shopping Spree Committee, co-launched Crown Ministries for Bellevue, and many other areas of service. I say these things not to be boastful but to let you know how much Bellevue has meant to me and my family over the years and to let you know I am close to a lot of activity here at Bellevue.

The reason I am putting my name on the line is because I came to the point where I was more concerned with what God wanted me to do rather than what man wanted me to do or what man could do to me. I saw things that were not right and I had knowledge firsthand of other things that I knew were not right.

JM: Well, Mark, I don't think anyone could say that you've not been involved deeply and integrally in the life of our church. Now, let's begin to get at the heart of these issues we've been hearing about. Obviously we won't have time in one evening to deal with everything, so tonight I'd like to simply ask you about the first thing that really caught your attention. What was it that began to convince you there was a real problem at Bellevue? A problem that extended into the highest levels of the administration

MS: First of all, let me say that when we called Steve Gaines to be our pastor, I was as excited as anyone at Bellevue. We had prayed that God give us the man He wanted us to have and I believe he was that man. Within the first 6 weeks, I was getting a check in my spirit about things I was hearing with my own ears. I thought he had said a few things when he addressed the deacons at his first deacons meeting. I had also heard of some things he had told the employees of Bellevue in a meeting that went against what I thought was the role of a pastor.

My father has been a Southern Baptist Pastor for over 50 years and I've been around 100's of pastors in my life. I believe I know the heart of a pastor. A pastor is a shepherd who leads his sheep. Some of the things I heard in the deacon meeting and from the pulpit seemed to be a bit arrogant in nature, especially from someone who had just followed a pastor that had been here for over 30 years. This check in my spirit kept growing and is still growing today. Being as active at Bellevue as our family is, we have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know a lot of staff members here at the church. Some are here and some have moved on this year. Being as close to a lot of staff members, we have shared a lot of things over the years. In fact, I've been around the world with staff, prayed with them, had them in our home and been in their homes. We have laughed together and cried together as we have sought God's will in our personal and church life. It's not unusual to discuss things that are on your heart with a brother in Christ. Godly counsel is something that has been beneficial to me.

JM: That's wise. Go on.

MS: A staff member told me about the most unusual happening one day. Steve Gaines had a dream about a member of Bellevue. In this dream, this man was not of the right spirit. In fact, it was said that Steve Gaines described this man as being demon possessed. Sitting in church each Sunday for the past 20 years downtown at the old Bellevue and out here at the new location, he would utter an Amen from time to time during the sermon. In the pastor's dream, this man needed to be quieted before the next Sunday service. There was a bizarre urgency to the time line to take care of silencing him that week. Steve Gaines had gone to Mark Dougharty and asked Mark to make sure the problem was taken care of. Mark Dougharty went to a staff member and that staff member could not take care of it in the time frame needed so Mark Dougharty summoned two other staff members to go contact this man. The same story was told by Mark Dougharty to these men. That week, there was more bizarre activity surrounding the event. Steve Gaines was obsessed with the job being done before the next Sunday. The two staff members did contact this beloved member of Bellevue and he was asked to refrain from saying "Amen" anymore. The real reason of course, could not and was not told to this individual.

JM: That's very interesting. You say Dr Gaines was obsessed with the man being, well I guess I should say, dealt with, before the next Sunday. What do you mean by obsessed?

MS: I'm told of multiple phone calls daily including Saturday evening before he would preach again the next day. Steve would call Mark Dougharty and Mark would call to see if the job had been completed. Evidently this man had a work schedule that may have been shift work so his schedule may not have aligned with theirs. Why the urgency before another Sunday? I believe the threat was made to silence him by removing him from the church if he did not agree to silence himself.

JM: Two follow up questions then: I understand if names may present a problem, but can you give us an idea of who told you about the phone calls? Maybe the person's relationship with the church? Also, do you have any idea why a dream would cause Dr Gaines to want this man silenced?

MS: The staff members I am speaking of who had knowledge of and or participated in this activity are in the Office of Administration. These men were troubled then and are now. I believe the men who were originally asked by Mark Dougharty should not have carried out the pastor's order. I believe they were wrong to have done so. May God have mercy on our church.

I'm not sure what it is about dreams or out of body experiences that Steve Gaines has shared publicly. I believe that it was used to intimidate the staff but that is just my opinion on what I now know. I'm not sure what would cause Steve Gaines to believe this dream was from God.

JM: Those are strong sources you have, Mark. Can you tell us what happened next? Did the staff members get in touch with the man?

MS: The two staff members contacted the man, met with him, and were able to sidestep the truth that the pastor had actually had a dream about him. They told him his voice was very loud and it threw the pastor off his train of thought.

If that was truly the case, why make up the story about a dream and the man being demon possessed? The man agreed to stop saying Amen but he told the two staff members that the only time he ever said Amen was when the Holy Spirit prompted him to do so. This godly man was bruised by the pastor.

JM: As a quick aside, Mark, you noted earlier that you grew up the son of an SBC preacher. You've been around preachers your whole life. Could you give us an idea of how you think a pastor should tend . . . well tend his flock?

MS: Being a PK has been one of the most wonderful experiences God could have ever given me. I've had the opportunity to see pastoral life up close and personal in ways the average person would never see. I used to tell Dr. Rogers that he was my second favorite pastor in the world. He would chuckle at that statement knowing that I loved my dad not only as my dad but as my pastor growing up.

I'll tell you the qualities I continue to see in my dad which exemplify what I believe a pastor should be like: 1. A man above reproach - a man who has integrity, who doesn't give others a reason to question his truthfulness. He will not compromise. 2. A man who will listen to others. As a pastor, it's impossible to be in a pastorate and not have people with different opinions that differ with yours. A shepherd will listen to that person and discuss the issue and very kindly agree to disagree instead of "my way or the highway." 3. A man who is transparent—I believe a pastor is willing to let anyone examine the things he is involved in. A shepherd does not hide behind other people or closed doors. 4. A man who is no respecter of persons. I believe a true shepherd does not surround himself just with men of wealth, position, or class. The church is made up of the body of believers. The church is made up of rich, poor, young, old, white, black, the prominent, the unknown. A true shepherd is someone who is willing to surround himself with men who are not afraid to hold him accountable, men who are not afraid to ask the tough questions. Iron sharpens iron. 5. A loving gentle spirited man. I believe a pastor is one who tends to his sheep. Not someone who is interested in his personal gain whether it be fortune, fame, or position. A pastor loves his church he is over and stays close by. He doesn't spend time with everyone else at the expense of his own church. 6. A man who loves the Word and wants every opportunity to preach. 7. A soul winner. A man who leads by example every opportunity he has. He is burdened for the lost. 8. A family man. A man who loves his family and protects them both physically and spiritually. A pastor is very careful to not do anything in public or private that may cause others to stumble whether they be his flock or personal family.

JM: I think that's very well said, Mark. Would that God would make every pastor out there to live up to those standards. Now, back to this strange story. Did it end there, with the staff members visiting this fellow? Or is there more?

MS: It's becomes something for me that I'm terribly burdened over. As I said earlier, a pastor should be above reproach. I began to see things and hear things with my own eyes that were confirming this "check" I had in my spirit with Steve Gaines. I was not looking for this issue, this issue came to me.

A staff member who was involved came to me because he was burdened and confided in me for counsel. The wrong had already been done and I advised the staff member to go to Steve Gaines and confront him with what had been done and correct a wrong. For fear of losing their job, they did nothing.

I can't speak for anyone else because I'm not in their shoes. For me, I would hope that I would have either said no or tried to correct a wrong. Knowledge is powerful. Once you have knowledge, it generally requires you to do something with it. If the knowledge is something that doesn't affect anything or anyone, it's ok to just let it go. In cases where you believe someone has done wrong or someone has been injured, it is often necessary to take that knowledge and carry it to the next step. For example, if you were at work and you witnessed someone taking cash from the company, I believe you have a responsibility to use that knowledge to right a wrong simply because you are involved now. You may not have been looking to get involved, but you are because of circumstances you didn't create. In fact, you probably wish you had never had knowledge of what you saw.

Similarly, I prayed about this information for a while and pondered over what the consequences would be if nothing was done. A myriad of thoughts ran through my mind. What if the man was terribly hurt by this action and restitution was never made? What if the accuser was not held accountable, and he continued down the wrong path which led to deeper problems later? What about the other men involved that were compromised? What would God have me do? I felt led by the Holy Spirit to confront the accuser of this issue.

JM: That's a bold decision. With whom did you speak? How did it go?

MS: On an unrelated matter Steve Gaines called me to have lunch with him. It was at this lunch meeting that I confronted him with this issue. It was not an easy thing to do but I plainly stated what had been told to me by the staff members. He looked as if he was caught off guard when I made the statement. He then told me that never happened, at least the way it was told to me. He said there was no dream and there was no demon possessed man involved. What he said was that this man threw him off when he said Amen and that's why he asked Mark Dougharty to have the staff silence him. I was shocked at his response because it was so different from what I had heard.

JM: Well, that is a different version. And as you noted earlier, there doesn’t seem to be any motivation for the men who dealt with this to make up a different story. I know you listed a number of staff members who remember it differently from Dr Gaines. Have their stories stayed consistent? Also, has anyone in the administration confronted these men for telling a different, very different, version of what happened?

MS: When I left the meeting, I immediately contacted one of the staff to verify my recollection of the story as it was told to me. I was relieved to find out that I wasn't going crazy or that my memory was playing games with me. As bizarre as this story sounds, I'm really wondering now what the pastor was doing. Did he really have a dream? Why would he take an issue like this and not be truthful with it? If he had a dream, how did he know it was from God? What about this man, did he care about him? What happened to this man?

I found out that the next Sunday, Steve Gaines approached one of the staff members involved and in the hallway put his arm around him, looked down at him, and said there was a story going around about him having a dream about a man. Steve Gaines then said, "that never happened". When I was told that from this staff member, I thought this was pure intimidation. It really upset me that Steve Gaines would do that. Why the cover-up? Do we have at least 4 or 5 staff members that are not telling the truth and Steve Gaines is? Why would staff members try and frame the pastor over something this bizarre? I've checked with two staff members as recently as a week ago and their stories stay constant. When I say staff members, I'm not acknowledging current from former for reasons I'll share in a few moments.

The next logical step with me was to go to Mark Dougharty. Recently I had a 3 hour and 25 minute meeting with Mark Dougharty to discuss a lot of issues that continue to surround Bellevue. At one point, I asked Mark Dougherty if he recalled what happened with (man's name)? He went on to tell me that the pastor had had a dream or vision about this man. He described how the pastor wanted this man to be contacted and asked that he not say Amen anymore. The reason was that this man was not operating in the right spirit. I told him that I had confronted Steve Gaines about this episode earlier and how Steve Gaines denied he had a dream. I told him how Steve Gaines went to this staff member and put his arm around him in the hallway and tried to change his memory of the events. I told him how Steve told this staff member he never had a dream. When I said that, Mark Dougharty said "I never said the pastor had a dream." I reminded him that several minutes earlier of what he actually said. Mark seemed like a man who knew his boss would not like what he had just said. He appeared to me to be a man who was afraid of the consequences of what may lie ahead because of his statement. These staff members are absolutely sure of what took place and stand behind their story. Mark Dougharty confirmed to me what the staff members said. I believe Steve Gaines did exactly as I was told he did.

JM: This is pretty shocking, Mark. Let me just make sure we're clear here: Multiple staff members say that Dr Gaines told them he had a dream or vision about a member of Bellevue being possessed. He asked staff members to take care of the situation, some of the men confided in you about this, you confronted the Pastor, he denied have having a dream or ever having mentioned it, he tried to change a staff members mind by denying the same thing again, and Mr Dougharty in a single meeting first acknowledged that the dream and orders to deal with the man had been given and then reversed himself, in that same meeting, saying that there had never been a dream? Is that correct?

MS: That is correct.

JM: Now Mark, these are pretty serious statements. Tell me, is this account you've told us tonight where most of the worries around church are coming from, or is this more like the tip of a much larger iceberg?

MS: The worries around the church are not coming as a result of this story that I have told you tonight. I don't believe there are many members of Bellevue that have any knowledge of this incident. I have told this story to 4 of the active deacon officers. In fact, Chuck Taylor is one of them. I told him exactly what I knew had been told to me and I understand he did a little investigative work himself last month. It would be interesting to know his findings. I do know he spoke to some of the parties involved. Several months ago, I confronted him over this issue because of the answer Steve Gaines had given me, and he said he'd ask Steve about it. Steve told Chuck it never happened. My response to Steve, Chuck, Mark Dougharty, and the deacon officers is to get all of the men involved into the same room and have the church sign a hold harmless agreement for any staff member who could testify without fear of retribution. The leadership's response was no. How in the world are we going to get to the truth unless we can discuss it? What would be the motive for staff members including, Mark Dougharty, to make a story up about Steve Gaines?

The answer to your other question is yes, this is the tip of a much larger iceberg. This is not a game we are in. We called a man to lead our church. With leadership changes there will always be those out there who don't like change. What I am most worried about is not the change we are seeing. What I am concerned with could be described with two words. Trust and accountability. Leadership is based on trust. It's more important what a leader does than what he says. A pastor should be known for his honesty. When the congregation sees the pastor stretching the truth and ignoring concerns, the people start questioning his leadership.

There is a certain level of trust that comes with the office of the pastor but ultimately trust is something that's earned over time. I pray that Steve Gaines and the rest of the leadership of Bellevue will recognize the need for restoring trust.

There are so many issues I could share with you tonight but time won't allow it, and they are all really just a result of a lack of trust and accountability. I pray for Steve Gaines and our leadership to be willing to discuss the issues surrounding Bellevue. We have a wonderful church with wonderful friends who all love the Lord.

I can't find anywhere in the scripture that calls on me to follow any man blindly. I can find scripture all throughout that calls on us to seek the truth and Truth, proclaim the truth and Truth, and embrace the truth and Truth. God so loved us that he forgave us even though all of us are as filthy as rags. I believe if the leadership of Bellevue opens up to truthfulness no matter how bad it may seem the fallout would be, that the people who are Bellevue will forgive as well. Then and only then in my estimation will Bellevue be the church God will then use.

JM: I share your prayer Mark. Thank you for taking time to talk with us tonight. Thanks for starting us at the beginning of your search for what's really going on out there. Since this is only the "tip of the iceberg" and there are still so many unanswered questions, would you be willing to come back and delve into those when you have time. I know there are lots of issues competing for attention, but maybe we could do a series of interviews, each dealing with a new issue and the first hand knowledge you have. Would you be willing to do that?

MS: I will be willing to come back and discuss unanswered questions.

Thank you for your love for Bellevue. I pray that God will humble all of us at Bellevue and that we can get our focus back on Him. I am praying that God will refine the church not only here at Bellevue but across our nation. God bless you.

JM: Thank you again, Mark