Finally! We have first hand information. Below is the first in what promises to be a lengthy multi-part interview series with Bellevue Deacon Mark Sharpe. I hope to have the next interview available as soon as possible, but I hope more that the next interview will be unnecessary.
In this first interview, conducted Sunday evening (9-3-06), I asked Mark to take us all back, using his firsthand knowledge, to the first incident that really impressed upon him a specific need for truth, transparency, and accountability in our administration. This is both a singularly bizarre story and the string that began to unravel the sweater.
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Mark Sharpe Interview #1 (9-3-06)
Josh Manning: Rumors have been swirling around Bellevue Baptist Church for months now. Many of you have heard whispers and concerns from people you know at the church. Well, tonight we hope to begin putting rumors to rest and bringing answers to light. To help do that I'll be speaking with Mark Sharpe.
Welcome Mark. Thank you for taking time away from your family and work to help us begin clearing away this confusion.
Mark Sharpe: Thanks Josh. I'm glad to be available but saddened that we are having to do this.
JM: Mark, before we get started, could you just share with us a little bit about yourself: how long you've been at Bellevue, what parts of the church you've participated in, and, really, I think we'd all like to know why you're willing to put your name on the line and come forward the firsthand information you have.
MS: My wife and I joined Bellevue in 1989. We have two teenage children who have both been saved at Bellevue. God has blessed our family over the years much more than we deserve. God has also blessed me by allowing me to be involved in many areas of the church. I've taught Adult Bible Fellowship for many years, been involved in EE, taught Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby for numerous years, led or gone on 8 foreign mission trips to Nicaragua, Brazil, China, and India. Our family has also had the opportunity to be involved in local missions by being part of a group that has ministered to the same assisted living home for the past 6 years, been a deacon, a deacon officer, served on the deacon nominating interview committee, served on the executive missions committee, been the chairman of the insurance committee, chaired the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary Shopping Spree Committee, co-launched Crown Ministries for Bellevue, and many other areas of service. I say these things not to be boastful but to let you know how much Bellevue has meant to me and my family over the years and to let you know I am close to a lot of activity here at Bellevue.
The reason I am putting my name on the line is because I came to the point where I was more concerned with what God wanted me to do rather than what man wanted me to do or what man could do to me. I saw things that were not right and I had knowledge firsthand of other things that I knew were not right.
JM: Well, Mark, I don't think anyone could say that you've not been involved deeply and integrally in the life of our church. Now, let's begin to get at the heart of these issues we've been hearing about. Obviously we won't have time in one evening to deal with everything, so tonight I'd like to simply ask you about the first thing that really caught your attention. What was it that began to convince you there was a real problem at Bellevue? A problem that extended into the highest levels of the administration
MS: First of all, let me say that when we called Steve Gaines to be our pastor, I was as excited as anyone at Bellevue. We had prayed that God give us the man He wanted us to have and I believe he was that man. Within the first 6 weeks, I was getting a check in my spirit about things I was hearing with my own ears. I thought he had said a few things when he addressed the deacons at his first deacons meeting. I had also heard of some things he had told the employees of Bellevue in a meeting that went against what I thought was the role of a pastor.
My father has been a Southern Baptist Pastor for over 50 years and I've been around 100's of pastors in my life. I believe I know the heart of a pastor. A pastor is a shepherd who leads his sheep. Some of the things I heard in the deacon meeting and from the pulpit seemed to be a bit arrogant in nature, especially from someone who had just followed a pastor that had been here for over 30 years. This check in my spirit kept growing and is still growing today. Being as active at Bellevue as our family is, we have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know a lot of staff members here at the church. Some are here and some have moved on this year. Being as close to a lot of staff members, we have shared a lot of things over the years. In fact, I've been around the world with staff, prayed with them, had them in our home and been in their homes. We have laughed together and cried together as we have sought God's will in our personal and church life. It's not unusual to discuss things that are on your heart with a brother in Christ. Godly counsel is something that has been beneficial to me.
JM: That's wise. Go on.
MS: A staff member told me about the most unusual happening one day. Steve Gaines had a dream about a member of Bellevue. In this dream, this man was not of the right spirit. In fact, it was said that Steve Gaines described this man as being demon possessed. Sitting in church each Sunday for the past 20 years downtown at the old Bellevue and out here at the new location, he would utter an Amen from time to time during the sermon. In the pastor's dream, this man needed to be quieted before the next Sunday service. There was a bizarre urgency to the time line to take care of silencing him that week. Steve Gaines had gone to Mark Dougharty and asked Mark to make sure the problem was taken care of. Mark Dougharty went to a staff member and that staff member could not take care of it in the time frame needed so Mark Dougharty summoned two other staff members to go contact this man. The same story was told by Mark Dougharty to these men. That week, there was more bizarre activity surrounding the event. Steve Gaines was obsessed with the job being done before the next Sunday. The two staff members did contact this beloved member of Bellevue and he was asked to refrain from saying "Amen" anymore. The real reason of course, could not and was not told to this individual.
JM: That's very interesting. You say Dr Gaines was obsessed with the man being, well I guess I should say, dealt with, before the next Sunday. What do you mean by obsessed?
MS: I'm told of multiple phone calls daily including Saturday evening before he would preach again the next day. Steve would call Mark Dougharty and Mark would call to see if the job had been completed. Evidently this man had a work schedule that may have been shift work so his schedule may not have aligned with theirs. Why the urgency before another Sunday? I believe the threat was made to silence him by removing him from the church if he did not agree to silence himself.
JM: Two follow up questions then: I understand if names may present a problem, but can you give us an idea of who told you about the phone calls? Maybe the person's relationship with the church? Also, do you have any idea why a dream would cause Dr Gaines to want this man silenced?
MS: The staff members I am speaking of who had knowledge of and or participated in this activity are in the Office of Administration. These men were troubled then and are now. I believe the men who were originally asked by Mark Dougharty should not have carried out the pastor's order. I believe they were wrong to have done so. May God have mercy on our church.
I'm not sure what it is about dreams or out of body experiences that Steve Gaines has shared publicly. I believe that it was used to intimidate the staff but that is just my opinion on what I now know. I'm not sure what would cause Steve Gaines to believe this dream was from God.
JM: Those are strong sources you have, Mark. Can you tell us what happened next? Did the staff members get in touch with the man?
MS: The two staff members contacted the man, met with him, and were able to sidestep the truth that the pastor had actually had a dream about him. They told him his voice was very loud and it threw the pastor off his train of thought.
If that was truly the case, why make up the story about a dream and the man being demon possessed? The man agreed to stop saying Amen but he told the two staff members that the only time he ever said Amen was when the Holy Spirit prompted him to do so. This godly man was bruised by the pastor.
JM: As a quick aside, Mark, you noted earlier that you grew up the son of an SBC preacher. You've been around preachers your whole life. Could you give us an idea of how you think a pastor should tend . . . well tend his flock?
MS: Being a PK has been one of the most wonderful experiences God could have ever given me. I've had the opportunity to see pastoral life up close and personal in ways the average person would never see. I used to tell Dr. Rogers that he was my second favorite pastor in the world. He would chuckle at that statement knowing that I loved my dad not only as my dad but as my pastor growing up.
I'll tell you the qualities I continue to see in my dad which exemplify what I believe a pastor should be like: 1. A man above reproach - a man who has integrity, who doesn't give others a reason to question his truthfulness. He will not compromise. 2. A man who will listen to others. As a pastor, it's impossible to be in a pastorate and not have people with different opinions that differ with yours. A shepherd will listen to that person and discuss the issue and very kindly agree to disagree instead of "my way or the highway." 3. A man who is transparent—I believe a pastor is willing to let anyone examine the things he is involved in. A shepherd does not hide behind other people or closed doors. 4. A man who is no respecter of persons. I believe a true shepherd does not surround himself just with men of wealth, position, or class. The church is made up of the body of believers. The church is made up of rich, poor, young, old, white, black, the prominent, the unknown. A true shepherd is someone who is willing to surround himself with men who are not afraid to hold him accountable, men who are not afraid to ask the tough questions. Iron sharpens iron. 5. A loving gentle spirited man. I believe a pastor is one who tends to his sheep. Not someone who is interested in his personal gain whether it be fortune, fame, or position. A pastor loves his church he is over and stays close by. He doesn't spend time with everyone else at the expense of his own church. 6. A man who loves the Word and wants every opportunity to preach. 7. A soul winner. A man who leads by example every opportunity he has. He is burdened for the lost. 8. A family man. A man who loves his family and protects them both physically and spiritually. A pastor is very careful to not do anything in public or private that may cause others to stumble whether they be his flock or personal family.
JM: I think that's very well said, Mark. Would that God would make every pastor out there to live up to those standards. Now, back to this strange story. Did it end there, with the staff members visiting this fellow? Or is there more?
MS: It's becomes something for me that I'm terribly burdened over. As I said earlier, a pastor should be above reproach. I began to see things and hear things with my own eyes that were confirming this "check" I had in my spirit with Steve Gaines. I was not looking for this issue, this issue came to me.
A staff member who was involved came to me because he was burdened and confided in me for counsel.
The wrong had already been done and I advised the staff member to go to Steve Gaines and confront him with what had been done and correct a wrong.
For fear of losing their job, they did nothing.
I can't speak for anyone else because I'm not in their shoes. For me, I would hope that I would have either said no or tried to correct a wrong. Knowledge is powerful. Once you have knowledge, it generally requires you to do something with it. If the knowledge is something that doesn't affect anything or anyone, it's ok to just let it go. In cases where you believe someone has done wrong or someone has been injured, it is often necessary to take that knowledge and carry it to the next step. For example, if you were at work and you witnessed someone taking cash from the company, I believe you have a responsibility to use that knowledge to right a wrong simply because you are involved now. You may not have been looking to get involved, but you are because of circumstances you didn't create. In fact, you probably wish you had never had knowledge of what you saw.
Similarly, I prayed about this information for a while and pondered over what the consequences would be if nothing was done. A myriad of thoughts ran through my mind. What if the man was terribly hurt by this action and restitution was never made? What if the accuser was not held accountable, and he continued down the wrong path which led to deeper problems later? What about the other men involved that were compromised? What would God have me do? I felt led by the Holy Spirit to confront the accuser of this issue.
JM: That's a bold decision. With whom did you speak? How did it go?
MS: On an unrelated matter Steve Gaines called me to have lunch with him. It was at this lunch meeting that I confronted him with this issue. It was not an easy thing to do but I plainly stated what had been told to me by the staff members. He looked as if he was caught off guard when I made the statement. He then told me that never happened, at least the way it was told to me. He said there was no dream and there was no demon possessed man involved. What he said was that this man threw him off when he said Amen and that's why he asked Mark Dougharty to have the staff silence him. I was shocked at his response because it was so different from what I had heard.
JM: Well, that is a different version. And as you noted earlier, there doesn’t seem to be any motivation for the men who dealt with this to make up a different story. I know you listed a number of staff members who remember it differently from Dr Gaines. Have their stories stayed consistent? Also, has anyone in the administration confronted these men for telling a different, very different, version of what happened?
MS: When I left the meeting, I immediately contacted one of the staff to verify my recollection of the story as it was told to me. I was relieved to find out that I wasn't going crazy or that my memory was playing games with me. As bizarre as this story sounds, I'm really wondering now what the pastor was doing. Did he really have a dream? Why would he take an issue like this and not be truthful with it? If he had a dream, how did he know it was from God? What about this man, did he care about him? What happened to this man?
I found out that the next Sunday, Steve Gaines approached one of the staff members involved and in the hallway put his arm around him, looked down at him, and said there was a story going around about him having a dream about a man. Steve Gaines then said, "that never happened". When I was told that from this staff member, I thought this was pure intimidation. It really upset me that Steve Gaines would do that. Why the cover-up? Do we have at least 4 or 5 staff members that are not telling the truth and Steve Gaines is? Why would staff members try and frame the pastor over something this bizarre? I've checked with two staff members as recently as a week ago and their stories stay constant. When I say staff members, I'm not acknowledging current from former for reasons I'll share in a few moments.
The next logical step with me was to go to Mark Dougharty. Recently I had a 3 hour and 25 minute meeting with Mark Dougharty to discuss a lot of issues that continue to surround Bellevue. At one point, I asked Mark Dougherty if he recalled what happened with (man's name)? He went on to tell me that the pastor had had a dream or vision about this man. He described how the pastor wanted this man to be contacted and asked that he not say Amen anymore. The reason was that this man was not operating in the right spirit. I told him that I had confronted Steve Gaines about this episode earlier and how Steve Gaines denied he had a dream. I told him how Steve Gaines went to this staff member and put his arm around him in the hallway and tried to change his memory of the events. I told him how Steve told this staff member he never had a dream. When I said that, Mark Dougharty said "I never said the pastor had a dream." I reminded him that several minutes earlier of what he actually said. Mark seemed like a man who knew his boss would not like what he had just said. He appeared to me to be a man who was afraid of the consequences of what may lie ahead because of his statement. These staff members are absolutely sure of what took place and stand behind their story. Mark Dougharty confirmed to me what the staff members said. I believe Steve Gaines did exactly as I was told he did.
JM: This is pretty shocking, Mark. Let me just make sure we're clear here: Multiple staff members say that Dr Gaines told them he had a dream or vision about a member of Bellevue being possessed. He asked staff members to take care of the situation, some of the men confided in you about this, you confronted the Pastor, he denied have having a dream or ever having mentioned it, he tried to change a staff members mind by denying the same thing again, and Mr Dougharty in a single meeting first acknowledged that the dream and orders to deal with the man had been given and then reversed himself, in that same meeting, saying that there had never been a dream? Is that correct?
MS: That is correct.
JM: Now Mark, these are pretty serious statements. Tell me, is this account you've told us tonight where most of the worries around church are coming from, or is this more like the tip of a much larger iceberg?
MS: The worries around the church are not coming as a result of this story that I have told you tonight. I don't believe there are many members of Bellevue that have any knowledge of this incident. I have told this story to 4 of the active deacon officers. In fact, Chuck Taylor is one of them. I told him exactly what I knew had been told to me and I understand he did a little investigative work himself last month. It would be interesting to know his findings. I do know he spoke to some of the parties involved. Several months ago, I confronted him over this issue because of the answer Steve Gaines had given me, and he said he'd ask Steve about it. Steve told Chuck it never happened. My response to Steve, Chuck, Mark Dougharty, and the deacon officers is to get all of the men involved into the same room and have the church sign a hold harmless agreement for any staff member who could testify without fear of retribution. The leadership's response was no. How in the world are we going to get to the truth unless we can discuss it? What would be the motive for staff members including, Mark Dougharty, to make a story up about Steve Gaines?
The answer to your other question is yes, this is the tip of a much larger iceberg. This is not a game we are in. We called a man to lead our church. With leadership changes there will always be those out there who don't like change. What I am most worried about is not the change we are seeing. What I am concerned with could be described with two words. Trust and accountability. Leadership is based on trust. It's more important what a leader does than what he says. A pastor should be known for his honesty. When the congregation sees the pastor stretching the truth and ignoring concerns, the people start questioning his leadership.
There is a certain level of trust that comes with the office of the pastor but ultimately trust is something that's earned over time. I pray that Steve Gaines and the rest of the leadership of Bellevue will recognize the need for restoring trust.
There are so many issues I could share with you tonight but time won't allow it, and they are all really just a result of a lack of trust and accountability. I pray for Steve Gaines and our leadership to be willing to discuss the issues surrounding Bellevue. We have a wonderful church with wonderful friends who all love the Lord.
I can't find anywhere in the scripture that calls on me to follow any man blindly. I can find scripture all throughout that calls on us to seek the truth and Truth, proclaim the truth and Truth, and embrace the truth and Truth. God so loved us that he forgave us even though all of us are as filthy as rags. I believe if the leadership of Bellevue opens up to truthfulness no matter how bad it may seem the fallout would be, that the people who are Bellevue will forgive as well. Then and only then in my estimation will Bellevue be the church God will then use.
JM: I share your prayer Mark. Thank you for taking time to talk with us tonight. Thanks for starting us at the beginning of your search for what's really going on out there. Since this is only the "tip of the iceberg" and there are still so many unanswered questions, would you be willing to come back and delve into those when you have time. I know there are lots of issues competing for attention, but maybe we could do a series of interviews, each dealing with a new issue and the first hand knowledge you have. Would you be willing to do that?
MS: I will be willing to come back and discuss unanswered questions.
Thank you for your love for Bellevue. I pray that God will humble all of us at Bellevue and that we can get our focus back on Him. I am praying that God will refine the church not only here at Bellevue but across our nation. God bless you.
JM: Thank you again, Mark
71 comments:
Josh, Thank you for the godly stand you are making do not let anyone tell you what you are doing is wrong!! It is sad that it has come to this but many things have been done to right these wrongs..starting with Matthew 18, but it was all ignored. I will continue to PRAY for ALL the people involved.
Thank you guys for being obedient to Christ's commandments....Psalm 119:30 says..I have chosen the way of TRUTH; I have set my heart on your laws. Here are some great verses that give me hope through all of this--Jeremiah 5:3, Matthew 25:40 & 45, John 3:11, John 3:21, John 4:24, and last I will leave you with this one..John 8:32,Then you will know the TRUTH, and the Truth will set you free. NIV
First I would like to thank both Mr. Sharpe and Josh. Both have shown courage in a situation that may cause friendships to be broken, which is a shame. I cannot imagine the pressure and stress that you and others involved in this must be feeling. I know that God will bless you for seeking the truth.
Mr. Sharpe’s words are very interesting and they are just another piece of the puzzle that I am still trying to see the complete picture. I am sure that the picture will become clearer with each interview. I am glad to hear these things from someone who has firsthand knowledge of what is going on and at the same time I am saddened to hear the true. It is a sad day when a pastor does questionable things that cause this flock to not to be about to trust him or to wonder if he is telling the truth when he talks. Like Mr. Sharpe said, “Leadership is based on trust,” and when that trust is broken, it is hard to trust again.
Let me say that the devil and his demons can come to us in dreams and cause confession. It is not a good thing when a pastor starts to put his trust in dreams and not in God. Dr. Gaines is a pastor and as a pastor he had to know that some people say “amen” during the sermons. People have been saying “amen” for longer than I have been alive, for longer than my grandparents have been alive. If he cannot concentrate for someone saying “amen,” then maybe he picked the wrong profession. Many say it because they felt compelled to say it by the spirit and it would be hurting the spiritual growth of someone to ask them to stop. Who is he to say the man was not doing it in the right spirit? How does he know the spirit of another? I am outraged by this! Who does he think he is? And to go even further and lie, try to cover-up, and to intimate someone, well that is just too much. Yes, as the leader of BBC he should have admitted to what he did and said and asked for forgiveness, but even more, as a man he should have done it. I have lost all respect for Dr. Gaines and it has been hard to sit in there every Sunday and listen to him knowing what I know. This Sunday will be even harder; I am not sure if I can ever trust the man again. Yes, I can forgive him but trust takes a while to build back up and he must first admit to what he has done and ask for forgiveness and he must do it in front of the whole church.
And to have staff members lying for him is too much. Mr. Dougharty is just as bad as Dr. Gaines. I knew some things that I did not like about Mr. Dougharty even before Dr. Gaines arrived. What is that saying….? “Birds of a feather flock together.” I truly fear for the future of bellevue with mean like Dr. Gaines, Mr. Dougharty, and Mr. Taylor heading things up. I am praying and will continue to pray for the church and each of these men.
Thank you so very much for coming forth with this information, it has been verying enlighting. I pray that the interviews will continue. I am sure that Mr. Sharpe and Josh will be getting some intimading phone calls and maybe even some visits because I this interview, but I just pray that God will be with you can give you strength. Do not be intimaded. Things may be rough for you but you must ride out the storm because the ocean is clamest right after the storm.
God bless and I am many more are with you on the quest for the truth.
JOSH,
THIS IS A VERY BIZARRE STORY.WHO ARE THESE STAFF MEMBERS? WE HAVE COME TOO FAR IN THIS PROCESS TO START DISTRIBUTING INFORMATION WITH A LOT OF HOLES IN IT.LETS PUT IT ALL OUT THERE. WE SHOULD NOT STRING THIS THING ALONG! I DONT CARE IF YOU HAVE TO INTERVIEW MARK SHARP FOR 24 HOURS STRAIGHT,YOU NEED TO COMPLETE THIS PROJECT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE SO THIS CHURCH CAN MOVE ON. THE LONGER IT DRAGS ON THE MORE DAMAGING IT IS.
PASTOR GAINES OBVIOUSLY PREFERS FEAR AND INTIMIDATION AS HIS MANAGEMENT STYLE. IS MARK DOUGHERTY AND THESE STAFF MEMBERS OUT OF THEIR MINDS? THIS SOUNDS MORE LIKE THE MAFIA THAN IT DOES A CHURCH ADMINISTRATION.
Dear Friends,
Thank you for the encouragement, exhortation, and Scripture this morning. They've truly been wonderful to see.
To Anonymous specifically, thank you for the suggestion and I sympathize greatly with your desire to see everything come out at once. But for now, we are going to continue doing a series of interviews, and I'd like to let you know why I think that's the way to go: 1) It is very time consuming to actually do the interview and prepare it for posting. 2) Both Mr Sharpe and I have other parts of our lives that we need to commit time to (of course you know that). And 3) By doing this in a series, it give the leadership many, many chances to come forward on their own. Neither Mr Sharpe nor myself have any desire to hang the leadership, and we do have every desire to allow the administration to save face, if you will, by coming forward on their own.
Of course, that's just my two cents on why we're doing it this way. Eventually, we may have to go with your suggestion, but for now, I'd rather err on the side of still allowing them time to do the right thing without us forcing them each step of the way.
The best to you all, and again thank all three of you for your encouragement.
Josh
Thank you for clarifying the issues of truth and trust in this matter. I am sure that Bellevue church members want a pastor who is both truthful and trustworthy. We can be sure that time and truth do walk hand in hand.
PS I should point out that using all caps in internet forums is the equivilent of shouting, and most internet folks treat it the same way anyone would treat someone shouting in a real forum. Don't worry about it; that's just for future knowledge. =)
Best,
Josh
Josh,
Surly the Lord is using you in a mighty way. Thank you for your courage to bring out the truth in the real reason the Church has gone in the wrong direction during the past year.
Thanks also to Deacon Mark Sharpe for having the courage in this most difficult matter to follow God rather than man.
There are many Bellevue members praying for you both and for any staff members who have been so wronged by all of this.
Dear Josh,
Thank you and Mark Sharpe for posting this inteview to know more of what is going on. It appears to me from reading this interesting dialogue that trust is really the issue. If the leadership fails the trust factor, nothing else really matters from that point on.
Several points come to mind as I read the unbelievable story:
* If this man was not in the right spirit, why would a pastor who is shepard over his flock not bring him in to talk with him? What about his spiritual condition? Are we concerned about him? That bothers me more than anything.
* If the pastor doesn't want an "Amen" why does he always ask for one while he is preaching?
*It sounds like the pastor compromised a number of staff members by having them do his deeds for him. That's intimidation in my book. I really have a problem with that.
I pray that the leadership of Bellevue comes forward quickly so this doesn't get out of hand. If this is just the tip of the iceburg as you said in the interview, that scares me for our beloved Bellevue. We do have a forgiving church and we will forgive anyone including our pastor and leadership involved in things.
May God have mercy on us.
Signed: A Bellevue Deacon
To saving grace,
"AMEN!!!"
..... I wonder if I will be called down for saying that?
REM...Just as an aside, please don't let this become a battle of one-liners. I commend you for not censoring the comments with meaningful content and doing so with fairness. I do think, however, you have every right and obligation to not facilitate verbal attacks and sarcasm. Bickering has been the downfall of many important forums.
to BellevueDeacon
you bring up some really good points.
Josh,
Unfortunately, your first hand information is anything but. Except for the actual conversation with Dr. Gaines, Mr. Sharpe's info is nothing more than hearsay. I really wish you wouldn't air this dirty laundry before getting all the facts. I've read the purpose statement on the savingbellevue.com site. I think it's odd that they and, presumably, you would use the staff's purportedly unChristlike actions as an excuse to act beyond the scope of the New Testament yourselves. This isn't a game, and this is more than bad sportsmanship. This could completely destroy Bellevue. You are simply making poor decisions.
This question is on a different topic.
Why does Dr. Gaines believe it is wrong to have our children sing in the sanctuary with the adult choir? Where in scripture does it say that? I was told he does not allow children to sing with their choir robes on during worship services. If someone can respond to this, please do so.
Thank you to the Bellevue deacon who spoke up. We need leaders now. My prayers and thoughts are with you all. Thank you also Josh.
2 Corinthians 13:1 "... Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
li•bel \ˈlÄ«-bÉ™l\ n
[ME, written declaration, fr. AF, fr. L libellus, dim. of liber book] 14c
1: a handbill esp. attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt
(2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means
(3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures
(4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel
Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary., Includes Index., Eleventh ed. (Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).
Josh,
Thank you for this interesting information. In addition to deception, my concern for my former church(and home church forever) is the financial deception that appears to be happening. There is no accountability for salary, bonus, or benefit decisions. I am aware of much if this information second hand, but am afraid that Bellevue is beginning to sound like Enron, with a Ken Lay equivalent at the helm. I pray not just for accountability, but for God's grace upon a place that has had such a huge impact in my life.
May God have mercy on all of you!! This is God's chosen man and we are to pray for him and follow him. If he is wrong then God will judge him! It is not our job to do so. All you can worry about is yourself and what you are doing in your walk. Josh-you should be ashamed for you are going up against God's man and that is scary. Why don't you interview the pastor and Mark instead of the he-said, she-said junk!! May God have mercy on you!!
Josh,
You do not have to post this comment...I just wanted to bring something to your attention.
I used the identity "deeply concerned" earlier and used my full name. Someone else has taken this identity...I did not write the last comment here (4:20 September 4). Is there any way to change this person's identity AND remove my name so that my thoughts/opinions are not confused with someone else's who either purposefully or accidentally chose the same "identity" name I did. I am asking you to remove my name so that this does not happen again. Have you thought about having people register for an identity so that people can't use the same one?
Thanks.
Susan
Josh,
An extremely important point in this debate is being overlooked. Is it possible our lay leaders are allowing the church staff to be "thrown under the bus" in order to permit Dr. Gaines to implement his agenda?
Why hasn't someone made an issue of the fact that during 2006 we have seen all-too-frequent departures of long-tenured senior staffers? Why isn't someone questioning the exits of Jim Whitmire, Randy Redd, David Powell, David Smith, Craig Parker, and Chip Freeman? Surely no one can believe that the rapid departure of those men is a mere coincidence.
What is going on inside the church that would cause all of those men to leave the staff in such rapid progression? Were exit interviews performed to determine why loyal, experienced, and valuable employees of the church have been departing every month?
Wouldn't it be interesting to know what those men have to say about the state of affairs at Bellevue?
I have a suggestion to all who do not accept the veracity of this interview. Follow Matthew 18. It would appear that Josh and some others have attempted to make contact with Dr. Gaines to no avail. If this is the case, contact him again and ask for a meeting with Mr. Dougharty present. Prepare an agenda or list of questions before hand and provide those to Dr. Gaines and Mr. D. Take two or three impartial witnesses with you and following the meeting assuming transparency, post the answers and resolution of the specific issues addressed.
To anonymous who posted at 3:06 PM 9/4…I would agree that this is more than bad sportsmanship. Allegations exist that four men in the center of this issue broke the law by trespassing. If Josh and others (I’m aware of a couple of leaders) have attempted to see the pastor and have not been allowed to do so, what are the options. I will not attempt to judge which side is handling these concerns worse however, what current remedies exist for the resolution of such difficulties?
There seem to be two choices here. Get the interested parties together with a godly mediator and resolve it…obviously the most prudent option. Otherwise, continued stonewalling will result in increased suspicion and the result will be more questions which will lead to more distrust. Oswald Chambers says “Continually bring the truth out into your real life, working it out into every area, or else even the light you possess will itself prove to be a curse. Your theology must work itself out, exhibiting itself in our most common every day relationships. Every detail of your life, whether physical, moral, or spiritual, is to be judged and measured by the standard of the atonement by the Cross of Christ.”
This is a spiritual battle no doubt. Staff members have been treated poorly, the truth suppressed, decisions made without accountability prior to Dr. Gaines coming. There have been concerns about leadership for some time and should those now in positions of authority investigate, the evidence is available.
I am both saddened and relieved that these issues are being aired. I believe God is bigger than this conflict and I know the people of BBC are gracious and forgiving. A well known Christian author comments on faith and conflict… “Faith must be tested, because it can only become your intimate possession through conflict. What is challenging your faith right now? The test will either prove your faith or kill it.” May we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light so we can have fellowship with one another. Let us believe and practice James 5:15-16.
Hi Susan,
I went ahead and posted your message to clarifiy about the confusing post you refer to.
There is a registration feature I can activate, but I'm kind of hesitant to since many who use this blog aren't super computer savy.
Could we compromise and just say that if the name problem gets bad, I will impliment registration; but if we can live with it (sign posts with initials or something), I think the "anyone can comment" option might be the best for easy flow of information.
Will that work for you guys?
Best,
Josh
To Susan,
Am so sorry about the duplication of identities. I did not realize at the time. I am the one who posted with the duplication as deeply concerned earlier.
To anonymus,
I dont believe that God's chosen man should tell lies about people and display deceptive behavior. If this were my pastor, I could not follow him. The information I have may well be second hand to me, but comes from a very accurate source. My chief concern is for this great church. The truth is the truth....I feel no remorse to reveal my opinion on truth. In fact I feel conviction to do otherwise. I only want to see an admission of mistakes and a repentant attitude that displays the magnitude of God's grace.
To my Heavenly Father,
Thank You that Your grace is sufficnet for me. I need it everyday. You are far beyond my comprehension. Bless Bellevue Baptist Church and use this great congregation for your glory.
To lurking with love,
I am sorry that I offended you and ask that you and everyone else to forgive me for the comment.
AN OPEN LETTER TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH FAMILY
First of all, I would like to thank you Josh for creating a forum for people of both sides to express their concerns regarding the current situation at BBC.
A distinctive practice in the writing style of the Apostles is the fact that, as writers, they identified themselves at the very beginning of their writings. There are reasons for that. Here are some:
1- By putting their name at the beginning of the article, they assured all readers that they BELIEVED in what they wrote.
2- They declared to all readers that they were BRAVE men, not afraid of the consequences of their writings. (I am sure they did not have “The Freedom of Expression” we enjoy today).
3- They left no room for readers to speculate as to whom the writer might have been.
(Don’t you wish the writer of Hebrews told us who he was)?
Therefore, my name is Riad “Ray” Saba. Member of the Bellevue Fellowship since Easter of 1978. Sunday School teacher of an adult men’s class for more than 25 years.
I recognize there is a great price to pay for writing this letter; a price I stand ready to pay.
I also recognize the price for not writing will be much greater; a price Bellevue Baptist Church must, as well, be ready to pay.
Conscience and conviction mandated this letter be written. It’s a known fact that certain issues have been created recently which have spawned an undercurrent of discord in the Bellevue Fellowship. These issues are sure to affect the future of Bellevue Baptist Church and perhaps even the Southern Baptist Convention. To ignore the present state of affairs would be a cowardly betrayal of honest conscience and a shameful disregard to one’s own conviction.
Urgency and a devoted love, of more than thirty years, for the Bellevue Fellowship have also mandated this letter be written. Not writing would be a gutless surrender to slothfulness, and a hypocritical love to my beloved Bellevue.
Not addressing these issues and just “letting them slide”, hoping some day things will be alright, is making an alliance with "Queen Apathy".
THESE ISSUES MUST BE DEALT WITH AGGRESSIVELY, TRANSPARENTLY, AND EXPEDITIOUSLY.
Please understand the purpose of this letter is neither to demean nor mollify any person.
THE PURPOSE IS RATHER A BURNING ZEAL TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY AND AUTHENTICITY OF OUR BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH. THE CHURCH OF LEE, POLLARD, AND ROGERS, THREE “GIANTS” WHO LEFT US A LEGACY. THE MERE MENTION OF THEIR NAMES IS TO THINK OF BELLEVUE, AND THE MERE MENTION OF BELLEVUE IS TO THINK OF THEIR NAMES. THEY HAVE EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE CALLED “BELLEVUE GIANTS“ . I HOPE THAT ONE DAY, THE LORD WILLING, STEVE GAINES WILL EARN THE RIGHT TO BE CONSIDERED AMONG “THE GIANTS” .
September 11, 2005, was the Sunday in which Dr. Steve Gaines preached his first sermon as Pastor of our beloved church. That was truly a memorable and a historic service. Those of us who attended will always remember the “washing of the feet”, the “passing of the mantle”, and the tears.
In the “washing of the feet”, there was a reinforcing lesson in humility to our new Pastor,as well as, to each of us.
In the “passing of the mantle”, there was a lesson and admonition in faithful stewardship of those things our new Pastor, as well as each of us, were entrusted with.
The tears that many of us could not suppress, we will cherish until the LORD JESUS CHRIST Himself wipes them away with His own hand. We can only imagine.
BBC is experiencing some difficult days.
There have been changes forced upon this “Icon of churches” that have been, from all indications, simply a one-man’s agenda and a one-man’s personal ambition. Changes are risk taking. Some times they can be good; some times the opposite.
If unity of spirit, greater harmony in the Fellowship, and more joy among the people of BBC, are the test of the merits of these changes, then these changes have failed miserably.
Today BBC suffers from two severe cases, disunity and a hypocritical display of make-belief harmony; therefore, her joy is surely diminished.
Can the fellowship, the unity, and the joy be restored?
If we set self aside and let the LORD JESUS CHRIST be pre-eminent, then the answer will be DEFINITELY YES.
Here are some recommendations I advance for consideration.
1- Have two committees formed, one from each side to discuss and arrive at Christ honoring resolutions.
2- I call on the four men who climbed the fence and committed the act of trespassing (1) to apologize in person to the person against whom they committed such, (2) to apologize to the church family in person, (3) If these men are laymen then they should resign their positions both as deacons and as officers in the deacons body, and (4) If these men are staff members then they should be reprimanded by the deacon body and should apologize to the church family in person.
Saying the above is not easy since I know some of these men personally. They are good men who fell to the pressure of other men and the pressure of circumstances. The tragic result was a loss of credibility and a tainted integrity.
The engineer of this “Fence Fiasco” must come forward and take full responsibility. He must ask forgiveness of the men he persuaded to participate.
3- There is what appears to be a conflict of interest pertaining to some members of the Pulpit Committee. This is that a relative of a committee member has recently been given a strategic position in financial administration of the Church. This must be checked.
4- I call on Dr. Gaines to reach deep in his heart and let the LORD do HIS work at BBC so that there will be a definite change in attitude from that of, “IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT HERE; THEN GO FIND YOU ANOTHER CHURCH,” to one of a more compassionate more CHRIST-LIKE spirit.
I call on Dr. Gaines and the Finance Committee to review and consider rolling back the present exorbitant salaries to a more acceptable level. Not doing so will lead to two of many conclusions, (1) These guys are in it for the money, and (2) members will divert their contributions to other Christian ministries outside of BBC.
I call on Dr. Gaines to find it in his heart to apologize to Church Family for his insensitivity to bring about changes with total disregard to their heritage in BBC.
There is a large cloud of hurt that hovers over BBC. From relieving certain key personnel from their lifelong positions in the Music Department, to the hiring of new staff at salaries that Four Star Generals would surely like to have.
Finally, in view of the great confusion that these changes have created in BBC, I call on Dr. Gaines to pledge his promise that he will not lead us into the path of “WARRENISM” .
Sincerely and prayerfully submitted,
Riad Saba Sept. 4, 2006
.
Dearest Riad,
How you bless me my brother. I can say nothing more than a heartfelt thanks for adding your wisdom and eloquence to this discussion.
Blessings,
Josh
To the anonymous who asked about children singing with their choir robes on Sunday morning with the adult choir...where in the Bible does it say adults should wear choir robes on Sunday morning...or coats and ties for that matter?
Mr. Saba,
My heart is touched by your convictions. I will always remember the day you spoke to our Sunday School class. Your testimony meant a lot to me then as it does now.
God Bless you,
In response to Anonymous of Sept. 4, at 4:52 PM, which started out, “May God have mercy on all of you!!”:
May God have mercy on our souls? Now you are the one judging. We are all God’s men and women. You seem to be talking as if Dr. Gaines was divinely picked? Maybe you ought to head over to the Catholic friend my brother. You are saying that God is in pastor because that is what God wanted. Did God also wanted Hitler (in no way comparing Dr. Gaines to Hitler, but the first thing that came to mind) to kill all the Jews and take over the world? That is some crazy logic. God did not personally pick Dr. Gaines, it was a group of fallible men. Yes, it is not our place to judge, God would not want us on the sidelines and not do anything. Everyone judges, including you, it is human nature. Let me ask a hypothetical question: What if Dr. Gaines came out next Sunday and said he is god and that he is taking down the three cross and putting up a statue of himself? Would you sit by and not do anything because you are waiting for God? No my friend, that is not what we are called to do. Look at Peter and Paul. Paul had to confront and correct Peter’s thinking when it came to what the Jewish customs the gentles did not have to do. Was Paul judging?
Josh and others are “going up against God’s man?” we are all God’s men my friend. Maybe that is what the people Told Jesus when he had to face the Sanhedrin? He is going up against God’s men. I am sure they would love to interview Dr. Gaines and I bet they have tried. With Dr. Gaines, you met him if he wants, when he wants, and where he wants. Why don’t you try to get an interview with him? I am sure you will see how hard it is and even harder if he knows you want to talk to him about his.
Yes, may God have mercy on our souls, including yours; but not because this situation, but rather because man is sinful.
Let me quote one of my favorite quotes. It comes from Dante Alighieri’s book The Inferno and later in John F. Kennedy’s book Profiles in Courage:
“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality.”
Dear Friend Josh, this is for "confused" 11:04 pm 09/04.....you say that Dr. G isn't God's appointed man. Is that right? Well, that's great how do we know who is God' appointed man?
Let me remind everyone about the small bookmark that everyone received when Adrian retired....do you remember? He would always ask if we were praying for God's appointed committee and God's appointed man and everybody raised their hands. He would then say, "okay, you have forfeited your right to complain!" Maybe,"confused" you didn't pray and but I did. I know that and am confident in Dr. Gaines being God's man.
May I remind you also that the sons of Korah, rose up against Moses. They said he (Moses) wasn't God's appointed man. The sons of Korah were Levites. Workers in the church. God had enough and he opened up the ground and these workers, the sons of Korah, were plummeted to their death. Everything they had.....be careful lest you "fall" the same way.
Josh,
I have been a member of Belleuve Church for over 20 years.
Thank you for all that you are doing for our Church.
What a mess we have at Bellevue. The pastor seems to have a major mental disorder, the chief administrative officer and the chairman of the deacons appear to be spineless.
So what do we do? My suggestions, if they are willing, are for Dr. Gray Allison, Mark Sharpe and Riad Saba to find four (4) other good and Godly men, excluding any current deacons and any of the last Pastor's Search Committee members, to temporarily assume control of the Church. And, this needs to be done soon.
The decent thing for Steve Gaines to do is to resign. Mark Doughtery and Chuch Taylor should apologize to the Church and resign.
Last, but not least, is for the Church to apologize to the member who was asked to not say Amen during Church services.
Where is Jesus in all of this? He is weeping for our Church. And, may He have mercy on all of us.
Is Mark Sharpe breaking a confidence of 2 staff members and recounting it in this interview "Firsthand Information?"
I wonder what Dr. Rogers would say about all of the bickering going on between Bellevue members.
Response to the anonymous who was addressing me:
Dr. Gaines was found by a group of men. Yes, God can work through these men to find the right man; but just because these men are on the church staff, that does not mean that he is God chosen. When we make decisions we try to hear what God is telling us to do, but many times we already have our minds made up and put our own personal as thinking what God wants us to do. Maybe Dr. Gaines was brought for other reasons, maybe God wanted us to clean house a little bit; I am not sure, I cannot speak for God. I do know that God would not want an arrogant, lying bully like Dr. Gaines watching over his flock. Dr. Gaines may talk that talk but he does not walk the walk. When I said God did not appoint him, I was speaking from my own thoughts. God did bring him here for something, but it was not to lead us, at least the way he is doing now. Maybe he was brought he to change himself. I hope that he can see what he has done, ask for forgiveness God and from the congregation, and change. And before you say that I am not perfect and that we all make mistakes let me say that I do have flaws and I try to work on them. I know that no one is perfect and that Dr. Rogers too was not perfect, the problem is they way in which Dr. Gaines and some others at BBC have lied, acted childish, and tried to cover things up. Maybe God is trying to do some holy house cleaning.
Oh, I prayed and so did Dr. Rogers. I am sure Dr. Rogers had doubts too. Did you ever wonder why he continued to go to BBC when he told us all, before Dr. Gaines came, that he would not be coming to BBC but would find another church? He was a little worried too and felt he needed to stay around.
And Moses? Dr. Gaines is no Moses. In Numbers 14 we see that Israelites rebelling against Moses and Aaron. What do Moses and Aaron do? They have an assembly and talk to the people. That is what I am asking of Dr. Gaines. I am glad you brought up Moses. Moses was a man of God but inNumbers 20 we see that Moses took things into his own hands and did not listen to God and God took away his leadership. Moses was not to lead his people into Canaan.
What about Judas? He walked with Christ and yet he let money turn his heart and he betrayed Christ. What about King Saul and King David? They were God chosen but they did many things unpleasing to God. Both Saul and David used there powers to do wrong: Saul tried to kill David and later David wanted Bathsheba so he put her husband at the front line so he would die. These are just a few of God’s men who have done wrong. Just because someone is a pastor, it does not mean they are holy and can do no wrong. May I remind you of a few famous American pastors who let power, money, and women cause their downfall.
And that last part of your comment: are you threatening me? It sure sounds like it. My friend, you need to be careful. Maybe you watch how you word things.
God bless you and your family
As a former Bellevue member, I am saddened to see my former congregation is embroiled in an atmosphere of mistrust and suspicion. It's this type of setting that served as backdrop to the recent troubles at Germantown Baptist Church.
A congregation always has the right to question its leadership, since our ultimate and true leader is to always be Christ and not any other man. This undertaking you've started regarding your Pastor should be handled with the utmost respect and humility toward your previously chosen and congregation-supported leader.
In the end, it is not the medium of a website or blog that will make the difference - it is the truth of the argument and the spirit in which it is shared with your congregation. If the truth or spirit are out of line with the person of Christ, then it should be the wish of all concerned that the effort be abandoned.
Much of what I have read in the "comments" section disturbs me deeply. I see a spirit not of humility and greiving, but rather of combativeness and self-righteousness.
While it is true that our Savior drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip made of cords, he also showed us the ultimate example of humility through his obedient death on the cross. Paul repeatedly pointed to this example of true servanthood as the ultimate expression of how we should live as Christians in this corrupt world.
In short, while the cause may be just (my personal jury is still out on the matter) please remember that it is through humility of spirit and action that true strength is practiced.
Thank you.
Josh,
I went this morning and picked up a Messenger (because I had not received mine and neither had my parents). I picked it up because last night I looked at the Bellevue website and clicked on the Messenger. Have you read it?
I read something interesting and I wanted to have it in hand just to be sure that I was reading it right.
In "Interview With the Pastor" Steve says (and I quote) :
"I'm grateful that when God's Word resonates in their hearts, they respond by saying, 'Amen!' What preacher wouldn't want that?"
That is a direct quote. Anyone can read it for themselves.
This is a total, flat out lie! He wanted a man (whom he says is possessed because he is saying Amen)gone to and silenced!
Can Steve answer his own question?
"What preacher wouldn't want that?"
To those who say that this site is not needed and uncalled for....
I pray that God would open your blinded eyes. If we sit idly by and say nothing, what is going to happen not only to our beloved church, but to the Body of Christ?
Not only do we need to take a stand for our church, but we - EVERY BLOOD BOUGHT CHRISTIAN - needs to take a stand against this Rick Warren Revolution! That is the most ridiculous and troublesome thing that I've read in a long time. I encourage everyone to read the "Toolbox" on the main page of Saving Bellevue.
They, (Rick Warren and McCalister), say, "... tell them (the church)","... say to them". I tell you, people (PASTORS especially) need to stop saying what Rick Warren wants them to say and start saying what GOD wants them to say. They also need to stop trying to establish the church by what Rick Warren says the church needs to be and start letting GOD be the Head of the church!!
Steve has and is taking Bellevue down this sick road. And if he continues to listen to Rick Warren and McCalister, he will not stop. In fact, if you read the "Toolbox",
they say that people are not going to like it , but don't stop even if you lose members. This is wrong!
Bellevue has already lost about 400 people to GBC. If that is where God wants them then God bless, but if they left because they are forced out, whether by being asked to leave or by not being able to worship at Bellevue anymore because of the situations that have occurred, then something is terribly wrong and the problems and source of the problems need to be removed.
I wonder if Steve knows what the truth is anymore?
To Bellevue member,
I believe that Dr.Rogers would be saddened. But I also know that he would want Bellevue to stand for TRUTH. My personal opinion, I believe that If Dr.Rogers were still here, he would be addressing these same issues himself but in a more direct manner.
To anonymous regarding children singing. My point was not how to dress, but why children are being forbidden to sing with the adults (irrespective of robes). Children should be allowed to sing in our worship services. Why are they being excluded from leading in worship?
Josh,
Why did you not post my comment? Is it because it challenged yours and others incessant idolatry of both Adrian Rogers and "Bellevue church?"
This is quite Corinthian!
To Anonymous of 12:55 PM, September 05, 2006;
Mr Sharpe did not disclose the identities of these men.
Note to Laura and many others on this blog.......
*****News Flash*******
everything you read on the internet
is not true; I read alot of posts that seem to take anyone and everyone at their word and never even consider that it could be totally fabricated. Or even worse, partially fabricated. Try demanding verification, evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, etc. Or better yet, think why someone would do such a thing, ie agenda, malice, delusion, allusions of grandeur, etc. Remember Dr. Roger's words: A HALF-TRUTH IS WORSE THAN A WHOLE LIE. Just my 2 cents. Best, GBC Member
To anonymous who wanted "Dr. Gray Allison, Mark Sharpe and Riad Saba to find four (4) other good and Godly men, excluding any current deacons and any of the last Pastor's Search Committee members, to temporarily assume control of the Church."
Be careful what you wish for. My gut feeling is that people at Bellevue are stirred up over changes that Dr. Gaines and others have suggested. The same thing happened at GBC. Lots of lifelong members got themselves in a wad. Those same members are the ones who are running the show now (along with former Bellevue pastor Bob Sorrell). They have made things very difficult for staff who have gone and staff who have remianed. GBC's attendance has been cut almost in half. And it was those same 30+ year members who had a gentlemen's agreement with Mid-America to donate a large sum in return for allowing them to have their SaveGBC meeting on campus, while claiming GBC wouldn't allow it at the church. The request didn't come to meet at GBC until just before the 3rd SaveGBC meeting, and only after something else had already been scheduled during their meeting time.
My point is this. No matter how MABTS sees it, they were bought off. I know for fact that this donation was made. And I know that it goes against normal school policy. Speak with any of the professors, and they will tell you that. MABTS supposedly heralds the autonomy of the local church, yet allowed a splinter group to meet. Why? $$$ I'm sure $$$ will also become a factor at Bellevue. Just be careful what you invite upon your church.
One more thing. Josh, dude, you keep saying that you have no forum to address the church. Bring it up in the next business meeting. I'm sure that's how your church operates. Will everyone be there? Of course not. They won't be here either. Can you keep outsiders out? No, but that will be on their own consciences when they are asked to leave. That's what we did at GBC. Also, you say there's no way to distribute a password for this site. Again, you are wrong. This site and SavingBellevue.com are passed word of mouth. The password could work the same way. You don't want to hide this. You want to grandstand. That's what tore GBC apart...Grandstanding. Don't let it happen to Bellevue.
To GBCmember 10:53 PM Sept 5.
Please, you are not telling the whole truth. How is the current leadership at GBC making it difficult? That simply is not true. Attendance was down before the former pastor spent 18 months in private with his staff writing new bylaws which were overwhelmingly voted down. Then former staff who followed the steps outlined in the Toolbox link on this site, started a new church. Yes, attendance is down but I believe you will see it exceed former numbers as GBC returns to its Southern Baptist roots. It is ironic that the only churches growing in our convention are conservative and evangelical.
Your comments about Mid America are not accurate. Some of the Mid America Board members are active BBC members so if something was done against policy, it would have been stopped or dealt with in short order.
Again, please support your statement about how those currently in leadership have made it difficult. Grandstanding did not cause the problems at GBC. Half truths, change of doctrine, and leadership that was not accountable caused the problems...sound familiar?
You are telling half truths and doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing. The majority of the congregation of voted to keep current bylaws at GBC and not go with the PD philosophy that moved away from a seeker friendly watered down gospel. Thanks goodness!
There were many attempts to get the former pastoral leadership to openly deal with a lack of integrity, personal gain financially from business associations that benefitted them financially, etc. Be sure there were no winners in this situation.
All of this could have been prevented if the motive of pastoral leadership had been confessed and dealt with openly.
There are issues at BBC and they will come out...it is just a matter of how.
To factsaboutgbc:
Numbers may have been down by 150-200 (I know because I've seen our former Education Pastor's Sunday School reports), but they have been down by 40-50% since Sam's last Sunday. And while they got an increase when school started back up, they are still down about 40%.
The fight at GBC was not over leadership or financial accountability, it was over the loss of power. Sam wanted to make sure that men meeting the minimum biblical standard ran the church, and some wealthy business wanted to make sure that they could run the church. If you want to talk about financial gain, take a look the contracts/contractors over the last decade, and see which church MEMBERS benefitted financially the most. Not all of the financial benefit is on record because there were "finder's fees" for some of the contracts. But one contract in particular stands out in my mind. Do you know whose company handles all retirement accounts for every full time staff member at GBC? Answer that question, and you'll have the name of one of the half dozen top detractors and loudest voices of opposition at GBC.
If you're going to chant honesty, truth, and transparency, make sure you ask for it all the way around.
Not sure we need all the post by the GBC members. Not even sure why they are concerned here.
I've not compared the situations between GBC and BBC other than to respond to comments made by BBC members regarding the "defeating of the enemy" at GBC. Unless you attended every service, heard every sermon, worshipped with us, saw what we saw at church business meetings, you are unqualified to speak on the matter. Rumors and half-truths are insufficient.
There are two of us posting under the name "gbcmember"; my intention has been from the beginning to:
1)state that BBC quarrels, just like GBCs, should be kept in-house and out of the public's view.
2)ask that members of other churches leave their uniformed, slanted opinions about what happened at GBC out of this debate and off this forum. As I said before--your friend's experiences and opinions don't qualify you to comment on the subject unless you have been through the entire mess.
It is true that a PD/CGM is causing all kinds of trouble in good churches all over the country--however, there are also people who don't know the difference between Southern Baptist tradition and Biblical doctrine; these people, in their zeal and paranoia, are labeling any kind of change that they don't like as PD or CGM. And if you don't agree with THEM, they define you as the enemy and brand you as part of the movement. If you don't like changes your pastor is making, i challenge you to voice your opinion; but do so through proper channels and not on a website. And let's all be careful who we declare as the enemy. BTW...this is my last post; I've said my say and anything else would contradict points 1 and 2 above. I just ask that before anyone else posts about churches other than BBC, ask yourself...do I have all the facts? Have I talked to sources on both sides of the debate or just my friends who agree with my opinion? Or did I just read the articles in the CA and the Baptist Press?
To GBC memeber:
I respectfully ask that you stop writing your thoughts in a family matter that you are not a member of. This blog is not about what happened or is happening at GBC. Perhaps you could start a blog for GBC to communicate with each other.
You sound like an upset member of GBC. You don't know the issues here at BBC and you are just stirring the pot which from your writing appears to be what you want to do. You appear to be trying to bring other people and groups into an argument. I don't understand your motive. If you really want the cause of Christ to go forward, please stop writing on this blog.
I am saddened anytime a church goes through conflict but conflict is not always a bad thing if there is a problem that needs to be rooted out. There is right and there is wrong. Truth is truth and always needs to be dealt with. The consequences of people standing up for truth may not look like a good thing in the eyes of man but I know that God is in control and God can refine a person or church by truth being exposed.
Don't look at numbers so much because I don't think you can fully measure what God is doing if that's what you are relying on. If numbers make you happy, I believe you put God in a box. For example, if you had a goal of 200 new members by Christmas and you obtain it, then you will be satisfied. Perhaps your work towards that goal with 200 in mind would alter the way you go about reaching that goal. What if God wanted to bring 2000 new members by just working the way God was leading you and let God take care of the numbers?
Another danger of numbers is that man can take credit for success instead of giving God the glory.
I appreciate your passion and I will continue to pray for you and for GBC and BBC that God will use both sister churchs to change Memphis and the world. May God bless you today.
re: Germantown Baptist Posts
Alright, as Admin I'm going to invoke a right that I take very, very seriosuly and use very, very sparingly.
There have been a number of comments made by GBC members to these forums. Thank you for your input. Thank you for caring about your brothers and sisters. But I will remind you that the only people entitled to comment in a BBC forum are BBC members. I respectfully ask that if you are not a member of BBC, you refrain from posting. I'm sure you can understand if you take time to imgaine the shoe being on the other foot.
That said, from here on out, I will do what I can to moderate the comments from non-BBC members. I do this not out of nothing but a simple desire to observe reasonable rules of debate within our body's membership.
Respect and best regards to all,
Josh
Sorry Josh, but that's what you get when you took this to the world. The world is going to comment. You might be able to limit debate and comment here, but not everywhere. I think you're fooling yourself and your brothers and sisters at BBC. Keep it in the four walls and aware from here.
To anonymous 1:37 & 1:38,
I certainly realize that it is extremely easy to state that there is 'sin in the camp' by those of us who are deeply concerned and burdened by the state of affairs at our church.
BUT, lest we never forget - this started when Dr. Gaines pushed Dr. Whitmire out of Bellevue, all for the wrong and for selfish reasons on his part. NO, this is not a rumor - THIS IS FACT!
Dr. Gaines has, on numerous occasions, stated "if you don't like it here, go find another church." This wasn't said to troublemakers, back-biters or immoral people!! This was said to 'faithful church members' who attempted to voice a concern or disagreement with the Pastor.
THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME IS - EVERYONE WANTS TO BLAME SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN THE SOURCE!!
I simply say, if the Dr. Gaines is not to blame - then he will stop trying to hide behind the pulpit, stop climbing fences and start MENDING FENCES with his precious church!
Wayne
I have not read all of the comments to this post (because I do not have enough time), but I do say that I have to disagree with Josh's agenda. Through this website you have not only started a website that is mainly gospel that is slanderous to the man that God has chosen to lead or church, but also have violated a very important procedure in church discipline policies.
To adequately accuse someone in public (like you have done to Dr. Gaines) you must first go through a rigorous process. The steps are as follows:
1. Approach the wrongdoer (i.e. in this case as Josh has proposed, the pastor) in person. A 1-1 confrontation
2. If this does not work try bringing a small group of people. Around 3 or so and approach the wrongdoer.
3. Between all of these steps should be a prolonged time of prayer. After you have done this then you can take it before the church, which in this case you have skipped because you have brought it to the public.
In my honest opinion you have wronged our church, which I believe has been headed towards a greater spiritual state ever since Dr. Gaines took over.
In response to your "Intruders" post, it is easy to see that you have overlooked a very important peace of information. There is a 4 foot tall fence right next to the giant gate. Now as a sensible person, I have reason to believe that Steve Gaines has enough common sense to step over a 4 foot picket fence, than to "climb" over a 15 foot brick and iron gate.
Another thing comes to mind in response to all you have done here. My father was horribly wronged by a former staff member at Bellevue (a member that I will not name, because it is not my goal to publicly shame people, as it seems to be Josh's). This wrongdoing caused my father great monetary loss. I will not go into detail about this action, but to sum it up; my dad offered a great price to Bellevue on something they needed, Bellevue then proceeded to purchase this equipment illegally from someone else (a non-member) just to save a few bucks. Now this was a long time ago and this is the first time that anyone has knowledge to this except for my family members, and of course the Bellevue staff. And to follow up on this, my father still goes to Bellevue and has no problem with the church. In fact, he loves Dr. Gaines (sorry had to through that plug in there).
Sincerely,
A happy member of bellevue
To Anonymous said...,
I've driven by the gate myself and understand what is being said. I don't beleive anyone said the 4 men climbed the gate. It's obvious to me they climbed the 4 foot fence. Who in their right mind would climb a gate rather than climb over a fence. I've not met too many men that can step over a 4 foot fence either. What difference does it make if you can read "no trespassing" and the gates are clearly closed. My mother taught me better than that.
Wayne,
Can you please explain how Dr. Gaines "pushed Dr. Whitmire out of Bellevue?"
GW
To Anonymous 1:37 PM,
So what you're saying is that the fact that people other than BBC members are coming of their own volitionto this site for BBC members, reading what they see (which isn't especially their business by any stretch of the imagintion) by their own choice, gathering their thoughts under their own power, typing those thoughts into a keyboard with their own hands, and then posting them onto this site by clicking on their mice--you're saying that that is my fault?
I'll tell you what, next time somebody stops in your yard, goes onto your porch, listens in when your family is having a fight, and then proceeds to walk in the unlocked door and lecture one side of the family about the other--next time that happens I think you may realize what your argument actually states.
It is absurd to say that because one says something, a completly unrelated, disinterested party is forced to do something else. I am not responsible for the actions of any other than myself. To state otherwise indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and the basic laws of civil society.
Josh
To Anonymous 10:01 PM,
Actually no I didn't lie. First, reread what I said: "I will do what I can to moderate the comments from non-BBC members."
The blog software posts comments not in the order I approve them but in the order which they were sent to the server. I often read them in reverse order in Outlook. After seeing what I considered to be enough GBC comments in my email, I posted that I would "do what I can to moderate non-BBC posts." Again, I urge you to read the WORDS that I wrote, not what you think I said.
This happened, however, after I had accepted a post that was timestamped earlier (which I didn't notice), but appeared later, and thus while reverse reading it appeared earlier in my email. Suffice it to say that I thought my post would appear after that one.
I didn't realize this had happened, so to stay in keeping with my own rule , I deleted it thanks to your letting me know--and still stayed true to my word that I would do my best to moderate them. That was my best. I regret that it wasn't good enough that time. Thank you for keeping me straight on that even if it was an honest mistake on my part.
Best,
Josh
"I'll tell you what, next time somebody stops in your yard, goes onto your porch, listens in when your family is having a fight, and then proceeds to walk in the unlocked door and lecture one side of the family about the other--next time that happens I think you may realize what your argument actually states. "
When was the last time you stood on your porch with a bull horn telling the whole neighborhood how your family members have wronged you while your family members sat in lawn chairs with their own bullhorns doing the same? Josh, that's exactly what you're doing here. Wouldn't you expect a neighbor to grad a video camera and sell the footage to Jerry Springer? I know if I thought I could make a buck I would. Hey, I wouldn't be sinning. I would only be letting the world know of your sin. Isn't this the same thing?
Josh, for Christ's sake (and I say that with all respect his sake is due) please stop this madness.
Josh, once again I reiterate my challenge.....remove the GBC references from your blog and I will stop interferring with your "business". You make it other people's business when YOU post things about another church on your blog. You seem to have a very serious flaw in the way your logic works. If you want to keep outsiders from posting about BBC, then keep BBC members from posting about outsiders. Your blog and BBC members posted about GBC FIRST....I only responded to their initial posts.
BTW, do YOU have a problem with transparency and accountability???
Dear Brother,
Forgive the curtness of my last response. I'm just amazed at people's reactions and reasoning.
Friend, I will only point out that you, as others have, are mischaracterizing this blog. If you would read the defense of it on the front page, it shows this mischaracterization for what it is.
Yours is a straw man argument that is not parallel to my own.
I wish you the best,
Josh
As a former Bellevue staff member and one who has known Bro. Steve for more than 20 years, let me say that I'm very disappointed in the manner and tone that a few disgruntled and evidently carnal individuals have taken in recent days. I no longer live in the Memphis area and find it very sad that I have heard of the "muuuurmuuuuuring" (as Dr. Rogers would have put it.)so far away. This is not only ungodly but libelous as well.
A few points to consider. First, it is well known that Dr. Rogers had felt for several years that Dr. Steve Gaines was the man to follow him as Pastor of the Bellevue Baptist Church. That's why he was brought into preach and speak so often.
Also, it is common knowledge that Dr. Rogers thought that some changes needed to be made, but he was not the one to make them.
Additionaly, with any change in leadership, there will always be those "sons of belial" that would seek to find any discontent and turn it into something greater than it is to make themselves appear as part of some bigger issue.
From what I hear from leaders and people from around Bellevue and the Convention as a whole, God is blessing the ministry of Dr. Steve Gaines and Bellevue is the better for it.
I would caution all of those breaking God's law and man's to be very careful.
I loved and trusted Dr. Rogers and I love and trust Dr. Gaines as well. Bellevue is in good hands, His.
Brother, I'm not attacking you. First, I'm just saying that there's been enough of outsiders dealing with our issues in our forum.
Second, your church did provide an example of things that went right and wrong. There is nothing wrong with discussing those things in the midst of another fellowship: I don't imagine (though I could be wrong) that you would invade a BBC meeting at which GBC was brought up, simply to defend your side of the GBC debate. That would be neither proper nor comly.
Finally, as aritculated in another post, if at a physical meeting of BBC, GBC info came up, it would not stay there. Nor, again, would GBC members invade and argue with us. That would be unacceptable there and is also here.
I understand, but will not honor your request.
In love and with respect,
Josh
I knew Dr. Rogers on a personal basis and I can say with full assurance that he would be very disappointed and indignant at the unsubstantiated and unscriptural allegations against his friend and God's man, Dr. Steve Gaines.
Dr. Rogers has told me on numerous occasions, "It takes no size to cricize." I just don't understand the mean-spirited tone of this blog and the website: savingbellevue. This is honoring to God or glorifying to Christ. If you are this upset, and have brought this issue to the attention of the "powers that be," and still haven't gotten satisfaction, then be honorable men and take your family to worship where you feel comfortable. Don't stand from the other side of the gate and throw rocks.
A Letter from Joshua Whitmire:
Dear Bellevue,
My name is Joshua Whitmire. I have been a Bellevue member for over 30 years.
I have read something from the Mark Sharpe interview that is weighing heavy on my heart, frustrating, and very disturbing. The frustration is not so much with the other blogs about the money issues, climbing fence fiasco, Gardendale video, or the lies, although,
they are still important issues. What disturbs me the most is the story about the man who was told to stop saying Amen. I grew up listening to that man say Amen for almost all my life. He is a kind, Godly, humble, and giving man. HE IS NOT POSSESED OR NEVER WAS POSSESED!! I will stand up and defend him any day!!
Everyone that truly is a Christian worships the Lord Jesus Christ in his or her own way. That is our God given right. Who has the right to judge us on how we worship except God himself. I get filled with the Holy Spirit and I say nothing. That is how God made me and that is who I am. Some people get filled with the Holy Spirit and jump up and down, dance, clap their hands, raise their hands, sing, and even say Amen. No two people are the same. Maybe out of respect I would say Amen when one of the greatest pastors of our time, Dr. Adrian Rogers, asked me. Most of the time, if I did not feel compelled to say it, then I won’t. That is my God given right and if I did it just to do it then it becomes cheap. But some people feel compelled, by the Holy Spirit to say Amen or whatever. That is their God given right. That is called true worship. The only thing that I felt compelled to say when Steve Gaines asked us to say Amen was, “Oh Lord Help Us”
I am not part of Bellevue anymore but Bellevue will always be in my heart. I will never stop praying for this church that has been in my life for over 30 years. I grew up under one of the greatest pastors and minister of music in the world. I agree with Mr. Saba and it is time for a come to Jesus meeting for all of the staff, pastor, deacons, and members of Bellevue. It is time for the authority figures of Bellevue to grow up and show some humility and integrity. Paul rights to the Philippians in Chapter 2:3 saying. “ Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.” Start considering the members of Bellevue than each other and yourselves.
If you do not have a so-called come to Jesus meeting than God will force you to have one. Believe me, you do not want God to wake you up. He has done it plenty of times in my life and it was not pretty. It is up to the leaders to look at themselves because God already knows on who you are and sees your hearts. I will pray for you and that is all I got to say.
I hope someone reads this and if they know that man (who was told not to say Amen) or if he reads this, if you feel compelled by the Holy Spirit to say Amen, than you go right ahead and say as many Amen’s as you want. That is not by my authority, pastor’s, deacons, staff members, or any other member’s of Bellevue, it is by God’s authority. I’ll say AMEN to that.
In Christ,
Joshua David Whitmire
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