Bylaws Progress! Good job Bellevue!

Many of you will remember that last week I sent a letter to Mark Dougharty, requesting a copy of Bellevue’s bylaws pursuant to the Tennessee state code. Today was the church’s deadline to respond. This morning I called the church, Mark Dougharty’s office confirmed that the bylaws were ready, and by this afternoon they had been picked up.

I want to take this opportunity to wholeheartedly applaud the leadership for this step toward transparency! Well done! I would like to take this as an indication that we are both heading in the right direction. I’m still not sure why requests dating back to March for these documents did not yield results, but at least information is starting to flow. Allowing the membership of Bellevue access to the church’s governing documents is the right thing to do.

Now that the administration has taken this first step, I would urge them to continue. There’s no reason why their show of trust in the congregation should stop here. I urge the church’s leadership to begin answering the numerous questions surrounding hiring and firing practices (after all, those who have been removed and those who have replaced them, are people who are to minister to us as a church body—should we have no say in who they are?). Further, I would urge the leadership to answer questions about undisclosed financial information—the congregation does have a right to know if its tithe and love gifts is being spent wisely in ALL AREAS, NOT JUST SOME.

Finally, I would urge that the administration carry out this first step to its fullest potential, and cease their opposition to holding a meeting of the congregation, at Bellevue, to discuss the direction of the church, answer questions from the floor, and put to rest damaging rumors. This is the congregation’s right, and it should not be forced to abdicate its role of self-governance to the deacon body whose job is not necessarily to lead, but to serve. Nor should it abandon that role and allow its leadership to operate without accountability and disclosure to the people in general. Leaders should only fear answering to a congregation if they have something they wish to keep from that congregation. We sincerely want to give the leadership the benefit of the doubt, but as secretive as they’ve been, it is difficult to do so.

Again, my sincere thanks to the leadership at Bellevue for, after six months of efforts, producing a copy of the bylaws. You’ve done the right thing. I’m truly proud of you. Now let’s keep doing the right thing!

Note: Now that a copy of the bylaws is available, I will work to give you all a summary of how they work to govern our church. Hopefully that will be available by the end of next week. I also hope to have the second Mark Sharp interview ready by very late tomorrow night, but it may be a tad later due to scheduling conflicts. I promise we'll have it up as soon as possible.

Letter to Chuck Taylor from a Concerned BBC Member

Response from Chuck Taylor to a Concerned BBC Member's letter below.

Josh,

I received an email from a “concerned member of Bellevue” and I believe you posted it on your blog site. I thought I would email you my response as well.

Dear Concerned Bellevue Member,

I know you are sincere in your comments and truly grieved in your heart. When one member of the body hurts we all hurt. It grieves me to know how you feel but my answers to your questions will not change your mind. We are all grieved by the things going on in our beloved Church but for very different reasons. You don’t understand why I don’t see what you see and I don’t understand why you don’t see what I see. You state that you have lost confidence in the Pastor Search Committee and that grieves me. When I think of the 9 people I had the privilege of serving with on that committee, they were the most humble, Christ-centered, servants of God I have ever been associated with. They gave up 8 months of their lives to seek God’s man for our Church. I guess when you say you lost confidence in the Search Committee because of the man we called, you’re also saying you lost confidence in Dr. Rogers since he said he knew all along Bro. Steve was the man. You refer to the search as “hush, hush, rush, rush”. It was “hush, hush” because we wanted to keep the rumor mill down at Bellevue and the Churches we were visiting. As you can see from recent events, the rumor mill is very strong at Bellevue. We were also following the same protocol used by the Search Committee that called Dr. Rogers 32 years before. To this day they won’t tell you where they went and who they looked at. As for “rush, rush”, there was no rush. We waited on God for 8 months until He revealed His will and, Scripture teaches, when God reveals His will you respond immediately. Was it a rush to give the congregation only one week notice he was coming to preach in view of a call? Maybe but we discussed the chain of events and their timing with Dr. Rogers and he was in agreement. Also, don’t forget one of the committee members was the previous Associate Pastor of Bellevue for 25 years and he was in agreement as well.

Another issue that grieves me greatly is your insinuations about John and Pat Caldwell. You obviously don’t know either one of them! They have served our Lord and Bellevue Baptist Church so humbly, faithfully and sacrificially. Your questioning their character is a perfect example of how evil this campaign is. All I can say with civility about that is you should be ashamed of yourself!

You are right a Church shouldn’t blindly follow the leadership of a Pastor but, according to scripture, it is unwise to oppose his leadership on grounds of personal preferences. If the Pastor was teaching heresy or had moral failures or was lazy and not fulfilling his calling, then you have a scriptural reason for opposition. But even then, you don’t go into the public arena and voice your concerns. That just gives the enemy the opportunity to discredit the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ before a lost and dying world. The issues you have with Bro. Steve are either based on your personal preferences or misinformation. Let me give you the truth about some of the accusations swirling around.

Lie #1, He has been accused of credit card abuse – A lie – Chip Freeman, the head of our Church Finance Office, reported to the Deacons there has never been any misuse of a credit card by Bro. Steve. Chip is the only one who would know if there was or not and he said absolutely not.

Lie #2, He has been accused of saying he had a dream about stopping a member of Bellevue from saying Amen – A lie – He told our Associate Pastor he woke up thinking about this gentleman that says Amen a lot and asked that he talk with him to tone it down some because it was distracting. Our Associate Pastor in turn talked with two other Staff members who knew him and asked that they go to him. Somewhere in that exchange they said he had a dream. If you want to know how Pastor Steve feels about dreams, read his comments about dreams in his daily devotional book for February 2^nd.

Lie #3, He didn’t like the way Bellevue worshipped and set out to change it to be like Gardendale. This lie came from a 3 minute clip out of a 50 minute video of Bro. Steve telling Gardendale goodbye. If you watch that video in its entirety, you’ll see how much Gardendale loved their Pastor and he loved them. If he was a conniving, money hungry, angry person like some Bellevue members have made him out to be, Gardendale wouldn’t have loved him so much and hurt when he left. Yes he preferred their format at Gardendale to ours at Bellevue but why should that be a surprise to you?

Lie #4, His income is excessive, some say $500,000, others say twice as much as Dr. Rogers. I have first hand knowledge of this and it’s not close to that.

You ask about the covenant relationship between Bro. Steve and Jamie. Yes, the Search Committee was told about it and it was no surprise to us. My personal opinion is God put those two together like He put Adrian Rogers and Jim Whitmire together or Billy Graham and George Beverly Shea. It’s very common for a Pastor to serve with the same Minister of Music throughout his ministry.

A lot has been made about 4 of us climbing over a fence to go talk to a leader in this opposition. It happened on the Monday (during daylight hours) before the Friday night meeting. We went out of love and concern for him and our Church. Matt. 5:23 is the scriptural basis for what we did. If he wants an audience with the leadership of the Church, he had the Pastor, Associate Pastor, Chairman of the Deacons and another Deacon leader on his doorstep. I repeat, we went out of love and concern for him and our Church. We tried to set up a meeting with him on that Wednesday night but he backed out saying he couldn’t get his group together. We had all the Chairmen and several members of the Pastor Search Committee, 2006 Finance Committee, 2005 Finance Committee and Board of Directors ready to meet with him but he said he could get his group together so he declined the meeting. If we knew then what we know now we would never have climbed over the fence and we regret any embarrassment that may have caused our Church but we didn’t have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

What is our Pastor’s vision for Bellevue? Win souls to Jesus and strengthen the Body of Christ. Maybe you haven’t noticed what is happening at Bellevue People are getting saved and growing in the Lord. It’s remarkable that some want to discredit or disregard the growth we’re experiencing: Worship services are packed, Sunday School is growing again, Women’s ministry is growing, I2 is huge and the soon to begin Thursday morning men’s Bible study already has 600 men signed up for it. All falls within the vision of Winning Souls to Jesus and strengthening the Body of Christ. How can you find fault with this?

I am sure you and I love Bellevue equally but we must remember it is not OUR Church. The Church belongs solely to the One who died for it and He has the right to put whoever He wants as the under-shepherd of His flock. I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt, Brother Steve is the one God gave to us for this time. If I knew who you were, I don’t even know if you’re a brother or a sister in Christ since you sent this to me anonymously, I’d pray with you about all this. I believe God will bring good out of this if we stay pure and focused on Him. That is my hearts desire and I believe yours as well.

Chuck

The following letter comes to me from a concerned Bellevue Member whose veracity would be unquestioned in the church and whose reputation is completely unimpeachable. This person's reasons for not signing is that the person does not want to quench any flow of private information coming to this person as this person continues to seek the truth. I respect that position and will honor this person's request. I find no fault in such a request, only shame that we have come to the point where it needs to be made.

Dear Mr. Taylor:

I have been an active member of Bellevue for over 25 years. I loved Dr. Adrian Rogers but I knew his retirement would bring changes and change can be a good thing. I prayed for the pastor's search committee and looked forward to the day we would once again have a pastor. I believe most of us were excited about Steve Gaines coming and welcomed him with open arms ready to love and accept him as our own. I was concerned about the way his coming was announced but I had confidence in the committee. We were a grieving church. We had gone thru Dr. Roger's heart attacks, retirement, colon cancer and untimely death. We needed someone to put their arms around us and help us heal. That did not happen. Almost from the beginning I had a check in my spirit about the things that were happening at church. It was not just the changes but the attitude and the arrogance of those changes.

I have checked four commentaries regarding the responsibilities of the pastor and the church in response to the pastor. I used the same scriptures you have used in email correspondence to others. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission that is required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his WORD and when ministerial instructions are agreeable to the written word, they must obey them. They have rule over the people; their office, though not magisterial, yet is truly authoritative. They have no authority to lord it over the people; but to lead them in the ways of God, by informing and instructing them, explaining the word of God to them. They are not to make laws of their own, but the people must search the scriptures and receive them not as the word of men but as the word of that work effectually in those that believe. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE FOLLOW LEADERSHIP BLINDLY.

Because I no longer have confidence in our pastor's search committee and many of our church leadership there are several questions I would like you to answer.

Why was there so much secrecy around Dr. Gaines coming? Why were the deacons and staff not told before the news was given to The Commercial Appeal?

If Dr. Gaines was a strong candidate from the beginning, why was Pat Caldwell on the search committee? Her son-in-law was on staff at Gardendale and is now on staff at Bellevue. What is his position and did you know of his coming from the beginning? It is interesting that her husband John is one of the fence jumpers.

Why was the church not informed of his coming in time to question Steve Gaines and why were we not given a biographical sketch?

Why was his coming such a hush hush and rush rush?

Why was his church protected more than ours?

Did the search committee know his leadership style was like a CEO and he would make decisions without congregational approval?

WHY WAS THE CHURCH BODY NOT TOLD OF THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN STEVE GAINES AND JAMIE PARKER YOU REFERRED TO IN DEACONS MEETING? We had no idea that the hiring of Steve Gaines would mean the firing of Dr. Jim Whitmire. Did you consider his children and grandchildren and the effect it would have on these families?

In what context did Dr. Rogers use the term follow and swallow?

What is Biblical about threats and intimidation to members who ask questions and attend a meeting regarding a church they love?

What information does Mark Sharp and others have that Dr. Gaines, Mark Doughterty, John Caldwell and yourself would break the law by climbing a fence with a no trespassing sign? Did you compare the fence jumping incident as no more than an EE visit?

Why did Dr. Gaines redecorate Dr. Roger's office when it had been redone shortly before his retirement? How much money was spent and who authorized it?

Did the pulpit committee inquire of Steve Gaines what his vision for Bellevue would be as pastor? What did you know of his vision and why didn't you inform the church before you asked us to vote on a decision that had already been made?

By the way what is a covenant relationship between two men?

This is an integrity issue and I would appreciate your prompt response.

A concerned Bellevue member

Cleaned Up Comments Pages

Ok guys, I've done what I could to clean up too-rough comments out there. I started to just purge them all, but then decided that they do provide a valuable resource. So, some of the earlier articles will have a lot of missing comments (some good, some bad). The later articles, however, should have basically a whiddle down version of the comments page, sans what I considered to be objectitonable ones. Don't worry, there are still lots of anti-blog posts to keep things equitable.

As for the idea of creating a best-of-the-comments post for the front page, I threw that around, but now that I'm trying to just keep an archive of the comments, it seems unncessary, especially given space constraints.

One final thing. If stuff cools down, we may turn comments back on and see how folks behave. But I just flat out can't have my inbox clogged with comment requests, many of which just let me know that people hate me before they even read what's written on here. So, let's see how things progress and maybe we can get back to some civilized debate in the days to come.

All the best,
Josh

COMMENTS ARE ENDED

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

After much consideration, prayer, and counsel, I’ve decided to pull the plug on the comments option for the blog.

The original intent of allowing comments was to give people a forum to civilly discuss what was posted here. To compare notes. To sharpen each other. To exhort one another. But I suspect many are now logging in simply to watch the muck slinging. This forum was never meant to become an outlet for what I would call “spiritual internet pornography”—the ability to log on, sin anonymously, and no one ever know about it. Such is counter to the accountability we want to foster in the family of God. I did not anticipate this turn in events, though given our fallen human nature I should have. This has been a failure on my part, and I apologize sincerely.

Some of you have adhered scrupulously to the original intent of the comments section. To you, I say that whether you be against this blog or for it, you have my deepest, most heartfelt thanks for conducting yourselves with integrity, uprightness, and Spirit-filledness. You, on both sides, have encouraged and sharpened me. I bless you in the name of Jesus, our precious Sacrificial Lamb and Coming Savior.

But some of you have not held to these ideals. You have delved into the muck and mud of the world, using crudities, personal attacks, and vitriol in your posts. This became abundantly clear yesterday. You should be ashamed of yourselves. You know better—you’ve been under biblical teaching, you profess to be Believers, and you know what Scripture says about our conduct. To you, I rebuke you in love as a fellow journeyman with Christ.

On this note, I must apologize to my audience for allowing some of these comments to slip through. After reading pages of vitriolic comments I reject, some comments that still contain things they shouldn’t, appear rather mild and make it through. I learned this after hearing over the phone of two comments I didn’t even know had made it out. Further confounding the situation is the fact that I simply do not have time to completely read hundreds of comments. These two factors, however, do not excuse my allowing certain things to get through which should not have. And for this I beg your forgiveness and pardon.

Finally, all of this said, I will be deactivating the Comment feature presently. I will save certain of the more outstanding comments (please don’t be offended if I don’t take yours, it’s just that we’ve got limited space on the front page), and display them in post form on the front page. These will be standards to look to as we discuss in the church and amongst ourselves the recent goings on at Bellevue.

This blog will continue to host interviews, updates on correspondence, and other relevant materials—updated as frequently as it is now. It will stay above the board, filled with integrity to the best of my ability, and Christ-honoring. What’s been happening in the comments section has not done these things, and that ends now.

Deacon Board Member Denies Request

The Bellevue Deacon Board Member I’ve been corresponding with has denied my request (see below) for his permission to post his emails containing answers to my questions. His denial was based on the fact that he is extremely opposed to “what you’re [I’m] doing” and the “discord you [I] am sowing amongst the brethren.” He also conveyed to me another “warning” that I’m not involved in a game.

I will continue to post commentary with necessary quotes from our conversations, but refrain from posting his correspondence in whole, this because the leadership's ideas on church governance must be made public knowledge and I wish to respect his wishes as much as possible while continuing to provide needful information to the Bellevue family.

Again I would ask why these men do not want their ideas known on church governance? Why should we not know what these men who lead us think?

As a final note, this Deacon Board Member suggested that I take the time I’m spending to blog these things and instead go win souls for Jesus.

To this I responded saying,

From: Joshua H. Manning
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:31 AM
To: ******
Subject: RE: Permission

Dear Mr *****,

I understand your position and regret that I won’t be able contextualize your quotes. As to the winning people to Christ comment, you know that’s as hollow as saying, “Instead of reading your Bible you should go win the lost.” Like reading the Word, Scripture commands us both to exercise church discipline and win the lost. As Pastor used to say, when you take part of the truth and make it all of the truth it becomes an untruth. I’m not accusing you of lying in any way, just using a bad argument.

Sincerely,

Josh

My original request for permission to publish this Deacon Board Member’s answers to my questions:

From: Joshua H. Manning
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:33 PM
To: *******
Subject: Permission

Dear Mr ******,

I would like to ask your permission to post the other two email correspondences we had, dated 8/30 and 8/31. I am preparing statements concerning those correspondences and would like to post your emails with them to, again, prevent me from taking anything you said out of context.

Sincerely,

Josh

SHARPE INTERVIEW STILL ON BLOG

Mark Sharpe's interview about firsthand information is still available. Either scroll down this page or click the link below. The next interview is scheduled for late this week.


http://bellevuetruth.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-record-firsthand-information.html

Answers to Objections to this Blog

Ok folks, the objections to this blog I’m hearing more than any other right now are that Dr Gaines may not have wronged me personally and that this blog is airing our spiritual dirty laundry before the world. I'm afraid some folks have erred in the truth, wishing truly wonderful things about keeping this quiet; but not realizing the necessary negative counter-parts of those wishes. Let’s take a look at those:

We know from Matthew 18 how we are to go to a brother who has wronged us. The men who claim to have been wronged by Dr Gaines (their claims of his sin against themselves and others of his congregation) have tried to deal with these issues straight down the line of Matthew 18. I will point out that the last verse (17) of that passage says, “And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” These men have been unable to tell it to the church because the leadership at the church will not provide the forum to do it.

Now the question comes: Have I been personally wronged by Dr Gaines. That question is a non sequitor when used as an attempt to discredit my hosting of this blog. To condemn me and the blog for hosting this information when I’ve allegedly not been wronged would be the same as condemning a man under the same circumstance for offering his home as the meeting spot for these men to address their concerns to the church. Perhaps he was not wronged himself, but nothing scripturally precludes him from offering to host the church to hear what the men claiming to be wronged have to say. Going further, it may be argued that by refusing to answer these charges, the administration has sinned against the entire flock—myself included. I do not at this point allege this.

Of course, the next step in arguing against the blog is to say that I am airing our dirty laundry for the world to see and that that is wrong. I will ask a couple of questions here and then make a couple of direct points:

Question 1: If this blog could be restricted to only Bellevue members, would the information contained on it be kept within that circle? I believe the answer to that is “not a chance.”

Question 2: If this were not a blog but a meeting of the entire church in the church building, would the information distributed here be contained within the body present at that meeting? Again, absolutely not.

But we do know that holding such a meeting would comport exactly with Matthew 18. I submit, and will continue to state, that this blog simply constitutes a meeting place for the people of Bellevue. We know that if we had a churchwide meeting at 2000 Appling Road (which by the way was forbidden by the leadership weeks ago), members of the world would get in there too. We would not be able to call roll. We would not be able to ensure that everyone was a member. This forum is no different.

Statement 1: I have made every effort to conceal this blog from those who should not be near it. The blog is not registered on the normal blog lists so by far the easiest way to get to it is to either type in the address directly or click the link on savingbellevue.com.

Statement 2: The only scripture I can find that would speak to not allowing these things in the public is that of 1 Cor. 6:1-8. I truly believe this Scripture does not forbid the coincidental revelation of church discipline issues into the world (after all, should the world never know how we deal with those who transgress without repentance?) but it does forbid the church to allow a secular person to render judgement (legal judgement) in church matters. This, I believe, an incorrect point people both draw from this passage and are using to question the legitimacy of this blog. I believe the point being incorrect is validated by 1 Cor. 5:12-13; 6:2-7. You may disagree, but I believe this interpretation is within the normal parameters of legitimate scriptural interpretation (ie there’s nothing heretical there, only debatable). Further, I am not condoning actually outsting someone form fellowship via this blog. That would clearly be contrary to 1 Cor 5:4-5.

Going furter, I would point out that the onus isn’t placed on the church to avoid discipline so that our reputation will be preserved in the view of the world (1 Cor 5:1-11: does anyone think that after the exercise of what’s prescribed in that passage, the world wouldn’t find out?) (And again, should the world think, having never seen it, that we do not discipline our own?). However, the onus is placed on individual believers to avoid sin so that their behavior will not hurt the church in the world’s eyes (Titus 2:7-8). Make no mistake: It is not the other way around.

That said, we should never sacrifice obedience to preserve our reputation to the world. Nor should we ever worry that our obedience will put off the world. Isn’t that what any number of men whom have filled Bellevue’s pulpit have always said: we are to be a different people?

One last note: 1 Tim 5:20 give us certain conditions and once those conditions are met, we must rebuke elders who sin “before all.”

Now, some thoughts on truth from the man, along whom with my father, I most respect in this world:

• It’s better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie.
• It’s better to speak the truth that hurts then heals than falsehood that comforts then kills.
• It’s better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie.
• It’s better to stand alone with the truth than to be wrong with the multitude.

And it's time for a latin signoff for the evening that relates to these objections: Manet Mansuraque Est: As it is, It shall remain!


Contextualized Cited Scriptures:

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote
unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Titus 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; 10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Dr Gaines' shares his thoughts on blogs

Below is an audio clip from Sunday Evening's (9-3-06) service at Bellevue, where Dr Gaines shared his thoughts on blogging with those present. Make of this what you will. All I can say is that there are some very, very respectable people in this world who blog.

Click the play button below for clip of Dr Gaines' specific comments on bloggers and blogging

****BUTTON REMOVED FOR CONCERN OVER COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT SHUTDOWN SIMILAR TO GARDENDALE VIDEO***

***TRANSCRIPT***

"Dr Rogers used to tell me, he said, ‘Steve, you know that some people don’t like me.’ I said, ‘Some people don’t like Dr Rogers?’ Some people didn’t like Jesus. I tell you if Jesus today was here today (sic) he wouldn’t get flogged maybe but he would get blogged. I think I’d take a flogging before a bloggin, amen? And if you don’t know what a blog is give thanks! Gives every kook in the world the ability to talk ugly about people without telling who they are: that’s a coward’s way! But you’ve got to forgive people."

Full Sermon: Click here. Blogging comments are 48 minutes in.

***ON THE RECORD: FIRSTHAND INFORMATION***

Finally! We have first hand information. Below is the first in what promises to be a lengthy multi-part interview series with Bellevue Deacon Mark Sharpe. I hope to have the next interview available as soon as possible, but I hope more that the next interview will be unnecessary.

In this first interview, conducted Sunday evening (9-3-06), I asked Mark to take us all back, using his firsthand knowledge, to the first incident that really impressed upon him a specific need for truth, transparency, and accountability in our administration. This is both a singularly bizarre story and the string that began to unravel the sweater.

(TO EMAIL THIS STORY TO A FRIEND, SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS INTERVIEW, FIND THE ENVELOPE NEXT TO THE WORD "COMMENTS," CLICK THE ENVELOPE, AND ENTER THE ADDRESS YOU WANT IT SENT TO.)


Mark Sharpe Interview #1 (9-3-06)

Josh Manning: Rumors have been swirling around Bellevue Baptist Church for months now. Many of you have heard whispers and concerns from people you know at the church. Well, tonight we hope to begin putting rumors to rest and bringing answers to light. To help do that I'll be speaking with Mark Sharpe.

Welcome Mark. Thank you for taking time away from your family and work to help us begin clearing away this confusion.

Mark Sharpe: Thanks Josh. I'm glad to be available but saddened that we are having to do this.

JM: Mark, before we get started, could you just share with us a little bit about yourself: how long you've been at Bellevue, what parts of the church you've participated in, and, really, I think we'd all like to know why you're willing to put your name on the line and come forward the firsthand information you have.

MS: My wife and I joined Bellevue in 1989. We have two teenage children who have both been saved at Bellevue. God has blessed our family over the years much more than we deserve. God has also blessed me by allowing me to be involved in many areas of the church. I've taught Adult Bible Fellowship for many years, been involved in EE, taught Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby for numerous years, led or gone on 8 foreign mission trips to Nicaragua, Brazil, China, and India. Our family has also had the opportunity to be involved in local missions by being part of a group that has ministered to the same assisted living home for the past 6 years, been a deacon, a deacon officer, served on the deacon nominating interview committee, served on the executive missions committee, been the chairman of the insurance committee, chaired the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary Shopping Spree Committee, co-launched Crown Ministries for Bellevue, and many other areas of service. I say these things not to be boastful but to let you know how much Bellevue has meant to me and my family over the years and to let you know I am close to a lot of activity here at Bellevue.

The reason I am putting my name on the line is because I came to the point where I was more concerned with what God wanted me to do rather than what man wanted me to do or what man could do to me. I saw things that were not right and I had knowledge firsthand of other things that I knew were not right.

JM: Well, Mark, I don't think anyone could say that you've not been involved deeply and integrally in the life of our church. Now, let's begin to get at the heart of these issues we've been hearing about. Obviously we won't have time in one evening to deal with everything, so tonight I'd like to simply ask you about the first thing that really caught your attention. What was it that began to convince you there was a real problem at Bellevue? A problem that extended into the highest levels of the administration

MS: First of all, let me say that when we called Steve Gaines to be our pastor, I was as excited as anyone at Bellevue. We had prayed that God give us the man He wanted us to have and I believe he was that man. Within the first 6 weeks, I was getting a check in my spirit about things I was hearing with my own ears. I thought he had said a few things when he addressed the deacons at his first deacons meeting. I had also heard of some things he had told the employees of Bellevue in a meeting that went against what I thought was the role of a pastor.

My father has been a Southern Baptist Pastor for over 50 years and I've been around 100's of pastors in my life. I believe I know the heart of a pastor. A pastor is a shepherd who leads his sheep. Some of the things I heard in the deacon meeting and from the pulpit seemed to be a bit arrogant in nature, especially from someone who had just followed a pastor that had been here for over 30 years. This check in my spirit kept growing and is still growing today. Being as active at Bellevue as our family is, we have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know a lot of staff members here at the church. Some are here and some have moved on this year. Being as close to a lot of staff members, we have shared a lot of things over the years. In fact, I've been around the world with staff, prayed with them, had them in our home and been in their homes. We have laughed together and cried together as we have sought God's will in our personal and church life. It's not unusual to discuss things that are on your heart with a brother in Christ. Godly counsel is something that has been beneficial to me.

JM: That's wise. Go on.

MS: A staff member told me about the most unusual happening one day. Steve Gaines had a dream about a member of Bellevue. In this dream, this man was not of the right spirit. In fact, it was said that Steve Gaines described this man as being demon possessed. Sitting in church each Sunday for the past 20 years downtown at the old Bellevue and out here at the new location, he would utter an Amen from time to time during the sermon. In the pastor's dream, this man needed to be quieted before the next Sunday service. There was a bizarre urgency to the time line to take care of silencing him that week. Steve Gaines had gone to Mark Dougharty and asked Mark to make sure the problem was taken care of. Mark Dougharty went to a staff member and that staff member could not take care of it in the time frame needed so Mark Dougharty summoned two other staff members to go contact this man. The same story was told by Mark Dougharty to these men. That week, there was more bizarre activity surrounding the event. Steve Gaines was obsessed with the job being done before the next Sunday. The two staff members did contact this beloved member of Bellevue and he was asked to refrain from saying "Amen" anymore. The real reason of course, could not and was not told to this individual.

JM: That's very interesting. You say Dr Gaines was obsessed with the man being, well I guess I should say, dealt with, before the next Sunday. What do you mean by obsessed?

MS: I'm told of multiple phone calls daily including Saturday evening before he would preach again the next day. Steve would call Mark Dougharty and Mark would call to see if the job had been completed. Evidently this man had a work schedule that may have been shift work so his schedule may not have aligned with theirs. Why the urgency before another Sunday? I believe the threat was made to silence him by removing him from the church if he did not agree to silence himself.

JM: Two follow up questions then: I understand if names may present a problem, but can you give us an idea of who told you about the phone calls? Maybe the person's relationship with the church? Also, do you have any idea why a dream would cause Dr Gaines to want this man silenced?

MS: The staff members I am speaking of who had knowledge of and or participated in this activity are in the Office of Administration. These men were troubled then and are now. I believe the men who were originally asked by Mark Dougharty should not have carried out the pastor's order. I believe they were wrong to have done so. May God have mercy on our church.

I'm not sure what it is about dreams or out of body experiences that Steve Gaines has shared publicly. I believe that it was used to intimidate the staff but that is just my opinion on what I now know. I'm not sure what would cause Steve Gaines to believe this dream was from God.

JM: Those are strong sources you have, Mark. Can you tell us what happened next? Did the staff members get in touch with the man?

MS: The two staff members contacted the man, met with him, and were able to sidestep the truth that the pastor had actually had a dream about him. They told him his voice was very loud and it threw the pastor off his train of thought.

If that was truly the case, why make up the story about a dream and the man being demon possessed? The man agreed to stop saying Amen but he told the two staff members that the only time he ever said Amen was when the Holy Spirit prompted him to do so. This godly man was bruised by the pastor.

JM: As a quick aside, Mark, you noted earlier that you grew up the son of an SBC preacher. You've been around preachers your whole life. Could you give us an idea of how you think a pastor should tend . . . well tend his flock?

MS: Being a PK has been one of the most wonderful experiences God could have ever given me. I've had the opportunity to see pastoral life up close and personal in ways the average person would never see. I used to tell Dr. Rogers that he was my second favorite pastor in the world. He would chuckle at that statement knowing that I loved my dad not only as my dad but as my pastor growing up.

I'll tell you the qualities I continue to see in my dad which exemplify what I believe a pastor should be like: 1. A man above reproach - a man who has integrity, who doesn't give others a reason to question his truthfulness. He will not compromise. 2. A man who will listen to others. As a pastor, it's impossible to be in a pastorate and not have people with different opinions that differ with yours. A shepherd will listen to that person and discuss the issue and very kindly agree to disagree instead of "my way or the highway." 3. A man who is transparent—I believe a pastor is willing to let anyone examine the things he is involved in. A shepherd does not hide behind other people or closed doors. 4. A man who is no respecter of persons. I believe a true shepherd does not surround himself just with men of wealth, position, or class. The church is made up of the body of believers. The church is made up of rich, poor, young, old, white, black, the prominent, the unknown. A true shepherd is someone who is willing to surround himself with men who are not afraid to hold him accountable, men who are not afraid to ask the tough questions. Iron sharpens iron. 5. A loving gentle spirited man. I believe a pastor is one who tends to his sheep. Not someone who is interested in his personal gain whether it be fortune, fame, or position. A pastor loves his church he is over and stays close by. He doesn't spend time with everyone else at the expense of his own church. 6. A man who loves the Word and wants every opportunity to preach. 7. A soul winner. A man who leads by example every opportunity he has. He is burdened for the lost. 8. A family man. A man who loves his family and protects them both physically and spiritually. A pastor is very careful to not do anything in public or private that may cause others to stumble whether they be his flock or personal family.

JM: I think that's very well said, Mark. Would that God would make every pastor out there to live up to those standards. Now, back to this strange story. Did it end there, with the staff members visiting this fellow? Or is there more?

MS: It's becomes something for me that I'm terribly burdened over. As I said earlier, a pastor should be above reproach. I began to see things and hear things with my own eyes that were confirming this "check" I had in my spirit with Steve Gaines. I was not looking for this issue, this issue came to me.

A staff member who was involved came to me because he was burdened and confided in me for counsel. The wrong had already been done and I advised the staff member to go to Steve Gaines and confront him with what had been done and correct a wrong. For fear of losing their job, they did nothing.

I can't speak for anyone else because I'm not in their shoes. For me, I would hope that I would have either said no or tried to correct a wrong. Knowledge is powerful. Once you have knowledge, it generally requires you to do something with it. If the knowledge is something that doesn't affect anything or anyone, it's ok to just let it go. In cases where you believe someone has done wrong or someone has been injured, it is often necessary to take that knowledge and carry it to the next step. For example, if you were at work and you witnessed someone taking cash from the company, I believe you have a responsibility to use that knowledge to right a wrong simply because you are involved now. You may not have been looking to get involved, but you are because of circumstances you didn't create. In fact, you probably wish you had never had knowledge of what you saw.

Similarly, I prayed about this information for a while and pondered over what the consequences would be if nothing was done. A myriad of thoughts ran through my mind. What if the man was terribly hurt by this action and restitution was never made? What if the accuser was not held accountable, and he continued down the wrong path which led to deeper problems later? What about the other men involved that were compromised? What would God have me do? I felt led by the Holy Spirit to confront the accuser of this issue.

JM: That's a bold decision. With whom did you speak? How did it go?

MS: On an unrelated matter Steve Gaines called me to have lunch with him. It was at this lunch meeting that I confronted him with this issue. It was not an easy thing to do but I plainly stated what had been told to me by the staff members. He looked as if he was caught off guard when I made the statement. He then told me that never happened, at least the way it was told to me. He said there was no dream and there was no demon possessed man involved. What he said was that this man threw him off when he said Amen and that's why he asked Mark Dougharty to have the staff silence him. I was shocked at his response because it was so different from what I had heard.

JM: Well, that is a different version. And as you noted earlier, there doesn’t seem to be any motivation for the men who dealt with this to make up a different story. I know you listed a number of staff members who remember it differently from Dr Gaines. Have their stories stayed consistent? Also, has anyone in the administration confronted these men for telling a different, very different, version of what happened?

MS: When I left the meeting, I immediately contacted one of the staff to verify my recollection of the story as it was told to me. I was relieved to find out that I wasn't going crazy or that my memory was playing games with me. As bizarre as this story sounds, I'm really wondering now what the pastor was doing. Did he really have a dream? Why would he take an issue like this and not be truthful with it? If he had a dream, how did he know it was from God? What about this man, did he care about him? What happened to this man?

I found out that the next Sunday, Steve Gaines approached one of the staff members involved and in the hallway put his arm around him, looked down at him, and said there was a story going around about him having a dream about a man. Steve Gaines then said, "that never happened". When I was told that from this staff member, I thought this was pure intimidation. It really upset me that Steve Gaines would do that. Why the cover-up? Do we have at least 4 or 5 staff members that are not telling the truth and Steve Gaines is? Why would staff members try and frame the pastor over something this bizarre? I've checked with two staff members as recently as a week ago and their stories stay constant. When I say staff members, I'm not acknowledging current from former for reasons I'll share in a few moments.

The next logical step with me was to go to Mark Dougharty. Recently I had a 3 hour and 25 minute meeting with Mark Dougharty to discuss a lot of issues that continue to surround Bellevue. At one point, I asked Mark Dougherty if he recalled what happened with (man's name)? He went on to tell me that the pastor had had a dream or vision about this man. He described how the pastor wanted this man to be contacted and asked that he not say Amen anymore. The reason was that this man was not operating in the right spirit. I told him that I had confronted Steve Gaines about this episode earlier and how Steve Gaines denied he had a dream. I told him how Steve Gaines went to this staff member and put his arm around him in the hallway and tried to change his memory of the events. I told him how Steve told this staff member he never had a dream. When I said that, Mark Dougharty said "I never said the pastor had a dream." I reminded him that several minutes earlier of what he actually said. Mark seemed like a man who knew his boss would not like what he had just said. He appeared to me to be a man who was afraid of the consequences of what may lie ahead because of his statement. These staff members are absolutely sure of what took place and stand behind their story. Mark Dougharty confirmed to me what the staff members said. I believe Steve Gaines did exactly as I was told he did.

JM: This is pretty shocking, Mark. Let me just make sure we're clear here: Multiple staff members say that Dr Gaines told them he had a dream or vision about a member of Bellevue being possessed. He asked staff members to take care of the situation, some of the men confided in you about this, you confronted the Pastor, he denied have having a dream or ever having mentioned it, he tried to change a staff members mind by denying the same thing again, and Mr Dougharty in a single meeting first acknowledged that the dream and orders to deal with the man had been given and then reversed himself, in that same meeting, saying that there had never been a dream? Is that correct?

MS: That is correct.

JM: Now Mark, these are pretty serious statements. Tell me, is this account you've told us tonight where most of the worries around church are coming from, or is this more like the tip of a much larger iceberg?

MS: The worries around the church are not coming as a result of this story that I have told you tonight. I don't believe there are many members of Bellevue that have any knowledge of this incident. I have told this story to 4 of the active deacon officers. In fact, Chuck Taylor is one of them. I told him exactly what I knew had been told to me and I understand he did a little investigative work himself last month. It would be interesting to know his findings. I do know he spoke to some of the parties involved. Several months ago, I confronted him over this issue because of the answer Steve Gaines had given me, and he said he'd ask Steve about it. Steve told Chuck it never happened. My response to Steve, Chuck, Mark Dougharty, and the deacon officers is to get all of the men involved into the same room and have the church sign a hold harmless agreement for any staff member who could testify without fear of retribution. The leadership's response was no. How in the world are we going to get to the truth unless we can discuss it? What would be the motive for staff members including, Mark Dougharty, to make a story up about Steve Gaines?

The answer to your other question is yes, this is the tip of a much larger iceberg. This is not a game we are in. We called a man to lead our church. With leadership changes there will always be those out there who don't like change. What I am most worried about is not the change we are seeing. What I am concerned with could be described with two words. Trust and accountability. Leadership is based on trust. It's more important what a leader does than what he says. A pastor should be known for his honesty. When the congregation sees the pastor stretching the truth and ignoring concerns, the people start questioning his leadership.

There is a certain level of trust that comes with the office of the pastor but ultimately trust is something that's earned over time. I pray that Steve Gaines and the rest of the leadership of Bellevue will recognize the need for restoring trust.

There are so many issues I could share with you tonight but time won't allow it, and they are all really just a result of a lack of trust and accountability. I pray for Steve Gaines and our leadership to be willing to discuss the issues surrounding Bellevue. We have a wonderful church with wonderful friends who all love the Lord.

I can't find anywhere in the scripture that calls on me to follow any man blindly. I can find scripture all throughout that calls on us to seek the truth and Truth, proclaim the truth and Truth, and embrace the truth and Truth. God so loved us that he forgave us even though all of us are as filthy as rags. I believe if the leadership of Bellevue opens up to truthfulness no matter how bad it may seem the fallout would be, that the people who are Bellevue will forgive as well. Then and only then in my estimation will Bellevue be the church God will then use.

JM: I share your prayer Mark. Thank you for taking time to talk with us tonight. Thanks for starting us at the beginning of your search for what's really going on out there. Since this is only the "tip of the iceberg" and there are still so many unanswered questions, would you be willing to come back and delve into those when you have time. I know there are lots of issues competing for attention, but maybe we could do a series of interviews, each dealing with a new issue and the first hand knowledge you have. Would you be willing to do that?

MS: I will be willing to come back and discuss unanswered questions.

Thank you for your love for Bellevue. I pray that God will humble all of us at Bellevue and that we can get our focus back on Him. I am praying that God will refine the church not only here at Bellevue but across our nation. God bless you.

JM: Thank you again, Mark