True to other accounts, a member of the leadership has demonized me for posting our correspondence which were in no way ever implied or said to be confidential from either participant. I regret he seems to have not wanted those correspondence opened to the public. The text of our conversation regarding what he feels was deception is below—I believe he knew the email in this post would very possibly be posted, so I do not feel this is disregarding his wishes.
Both emails mostly speak for themselves, but again I would add that I in no way ever implied that our communications would be kept to myself, nor did I expect a good leader, with a biblical view of leadership, to not want his statements to me on church leadership to be public knowledge.
From: ***** [mailto:******@*******]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:22 PM
To: 'Joshua H. Manning'
Subject: RE: Church Concern
Josh,
I’ve re-read your emails and can’t find anywhere where you indicated our dialogue would be posted to a blog site. You are a deceiver. This is not a game. You are touching holy things when you attack the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ and His chosen Shepherd our Pastor.
Proverbs 6:16-19, “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
You are a pawn in a spiritual battle and you better wake up.
*******
My Response, emailed at 9:17pm on 9/1/06:
Dear Mr *****,
I have not attacked the church. I asked the ***** [name of his office] questions on his view of spiritual leadership, followership, and the pastor’s vision of the church.
I wrote my opinion on your responses and decided to post that. Surely you wouldn’t fault me for sharing my thoughts on our conversation.
But I posted the emails in their entirety to show the context of everything we both said. I did not want anyone thinking I took you out of context in my opinion piece. I believe posting the emails provided you with as much protection as it did me.
I assumed you would realize I was asking for your opinion as a spiritual leader, **** [office title], and pastor search committee member—after all, we have never spoken nor met to my knowledge so I would have no other reason to contact you specifically. I believe nearly anyone would think a random email asking for a personal, not leadership, opinion would be awkward and out of sorts. I can’t imagine that you’re not aware that the emails you’ve been getting from other people are coming to you because of chance and not because of the positions you hold in our church.
Also, I’m not sure how my actions qualified as “wicked” or “mischief” since I simply repeated you, and I know I didn’t advance any lies because I quoted exactly what you said. And I don’t understand how repeating what you said, verbatim, can cause discord. How can my carrying your words exactly as they were said cause discord? If you would like to say that my posting of my opinion causes discord, it would be one thing; but again, how can my posting of your own words cause discord?
I truly don’t understand how my repeating what you said is in any way divisive. Did you expect me not to tell anyone the contents of our correspondence? If that was the case, I truly didn’t know because I generally expect that emails I send out may be discussed among others. I would certainly not have minded if you had made my emails available to the public even without my permission and without your replies. In fact, if you’re willing, I would ask you to forward my emails to the entire deacon body and
Would you have said anything differently knowing that the emails would be posted?
I regret we have come to this,
Sincerely,
Josh Manning
30 comments:
I am saddened that Chuck Taylor doesn't want his words known by anyone in the church. Isn't he the chairman of the deacons? When he agreed to be the chairman of the deacons of Bellevue, did he not want the responsibilities that come with it? Again, it looks like a coverup and someone fleeing from accountability.
Mr. Taylor mentions that this is not a game. Unless he meant that statement as some kind of intimidation, he is absolutely correct. This is not a game. It is a very serious situation when you have church leaders acting as if they are above everyone else. People's lives are being uprooted. I know of at least 5 recent staff members who have uprooted their family because of the current leadership. For Godly men who have served faithfully here at Bellevue over the years to leave makes me think that there must be something going on that we don't know about. I beg the leadership at this time to do something instead of deflecting everything off onto Dr. Rogers, demonizing faithgul members who love the Lord, or ignoring the issues. It appears this is all about Steve Gaines and something that's going on that we don't know about. I hope we don't have men as leaders who are more concerned about their reputation instead of doing what God wants to be done. In my opinion, the right thing to do is deal with the issues openly and honestly. Truth will always set you free. Our beloved Bellevue could be torn apart if our leadership doesn't swallow their pride and face these issues.
Anonymous, I'm not sure if you realize this, but those pictures are not on this blog. Only one picture is posted here: the Bellevue crosses.
Further, your reference to now knowing where I live is both a veiled threat and inaccurate. I do not live there. That is the community where a deacon lives, who has been trying to ask the administration questions. That is the same community at which was witnessed part of the administration and its unauthorized incursion, over the fence, into that community.
I posted your message to show others the attitude of certain people who want these questions silenced. You are even willing to threaten those of us who seek the truth from our spiritual leadership. But we fear God more than men.
So be it.
One last thing, Anonymous. This site does prove one thing, which you yourself have assissted in, those who ask questions and try to hold the leadership accountable are being demonized and threatened.
Thank you for your help in getting that message out there.
Dear Friend Josh....it sounds like you flatter yourself because of your claim of "demonization". In situations like disagreements that reach monumental proportions which seem to be happening in our church, evil does run wild by twisting God's values. People begin to justify anger as fighting for a principle and excuse slander and gossip as searching for truth.
Just to play the devil's advocate....let's explore some truth about you. Not that your life should be on display but, everyone has chosen the Pastor to explore his faults, let look at you. (Don't give me that line..."he should be above reproach" because the Bible says that we all are ministers of the gospel and we should be above reproach also.
Could you say that you have been actively involved in every aspect of Bellevue Baptist Church? What has your Sunday School attendance been like? Did you allow someone from our church leadership other than the Pastor (Dr.R) which by the way Dr. R appointed to be over you, give you direction in Biblical views? or have you just sat under Dr. R's teachings only. Did you participated in all youth camps, Wednesday night youth functions or even youth choirs? I can understand if you say that you don't sing, but did you ever go to these other things? As a college-aged young man, did you take into consideration any Bible seminars that might make your life grow as a Christian? Your viewpoint is slightly turned as if you are needing a "cause" to make your mark on the church that you never participated in. We need to totally examine our own life. I know that I have not totally arrived.
Praise God for the flow of information now being released. I am asking the current deacon officers and the Board Of Directors to address these questions on everyone's mind. If they refuse, I am asking them to resign immediately. Where are these leader ar this time?? Why have they allowed this to happen??
Dear Anonymous,
I’ve no libel on my blog, and I’m honestly not angry. I’m heartbroken that the leadership is responding in their current manner.
How in the world my viewpoint may be turned toward leaving a mark on the church is beyond me. I suppose your logic is that since there may be self-interest involved, my viewpoint is skewed, but this doesn’t hold up because were I looking to make a name for myself, I could have taken the easier, and superficially more spiritual, road and sided with the administration. That would have served any such self-interest much better—it would be easier to rise, gain respect and status, and have the powers that be with me. But my conscience will not allow me to. That said, your self-interest argument doesn’t stand.
I don’t generally make a practice of this, but I will answer your questions: I have been actively involved in Bellevue Baptist Church for years. I have participated in EE, choir, youth and college retreats, and seminars. I have taken biblical direction from ministers at the church other than the pastor, and my Sunday school attendance has been rather exemplary considering I’ve spent the last four years away at college (I believe an inspection of attendance records (transparency!)) will confirm that. I’m not sure what would have been proven to you had any of those element not been missing, but there you have it.
Finally, dear brother or sister, if you still judge that this is self-interested and/or coming from someone not involved, I respectfully and gently say to you what Paul said to the church at Corinth “it is a small thing that you judge me.”
I whole-heartedly agree with you: I've not arrived yet either, but oh! for that Day when we will be translated and be like Him who died in our place!
I love you dear brother or sister,
May God have mercy on us all,
Josh
PS I haven't at all meant to flatter myself. I've simply reported what's been said to me, and there's no other way to classify this than demonization: using Proverbs 6:16-19 to say I'm a thing that God hates.
Josh,
I appreciate your candor and motivation in this blog, but I have one complaint. Why are we exposing our church for the entire world to see? Is there anyway your blog could be password protected. My biggest concern with the GBC split was how public it became. I ask you Josh, please don't expose us also. We do have valid issues that need to be addressed, but can't we keep it in the family of Bellevue?
Thanks
PS. I have only heard about this site from non-Bellevue members. Surely there is a better way!
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for the suggestion. I too have been concerned and had considered your password suggestion when I started. But I don't think there is a practical way to do what you suggest. There's no way to get the password out to 30,000 b'vue members, and there's no way to make sure that the password stays within that group.
What's sad is that the church would not provide a forum for us to do this as a family, away from the world.
Again, I understand and sympathize with your suggestion, but I just don't know how to impliment them.
You may know far more about these things than I do. Do you have any suggestions for carrying out that kind of plan, because I'm definitely open to anything you'd have to say.
Best,
Josh
Because there doesnt' seem to be a way to "shield" this from the watching eyes of the world, I believe it would be in our best interest to make sure that everything we say on this blog will represent Christ in the best manner possible. I believe that we, as a loving church body who just seeks answers from our leadership, make sure that we examine our responses over and over again to ensure that they are dripping with love and concern, not sarcasm and accusations. I have read some replies that are not full of love and genuine concern, and I have read some that are. Please, since the "world" is watching how we handle this, let's make sure that everything we say is above reproach. We just, simply, want answers. That's it. What is so wrong with wanting answers? What is so wrong with answering those questions? Thank the Lord, we finally have someone who is courageous enough and willing to stick their neck out there to help us achieve this. I don't believe there is anyway the leadership can continue to "ignore" what is going on. Hopefully, in the near future, we will be able to resolve these things and move past this. Thank you, Josh. You are wise beyond your years.
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for the comment. I agree 100%. Thank you also for your kind words--to God be the glory.
Sincerely,
Josh
Josh,
I just wanted to encourage you to stay the course. Keep fasting, praying, and searching the Word to seek after the Lord. He will lead you. Remember what's on the front of the building -- Ps. 43:3! If you seek after Him and fear Him, He will lead you to His holy hill and His dwelling places, guide you with His eye upon you, direct your paths, protect you, provide for you and give you peace. You are wise beyond your years, and have displayed more courage than most could have ever done. The truth needs to be told by someone. The members of church leadership and administration are accountable to the Lord first, but also to the people over whom they exercise authority. Each one of them should be people of integrity, uprightness, righteousness, purity and holiness -- as should we. Personally, the "physical" manifestations of wrong-doing are the least of my concerns. I'm more concerned with the spiritual weakness from which they arise. A man who walks closely with the Lord Jesus, would not disobey the law and trespass onto someone's property. Obedience to God is the evidence of someone's relationship with Him -- "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (Jn. 14:15)
Furthermore, the "seeker friendly" movement is anything, but friendly, to the church -- not just Bellevue, but the church as a whole. The church is for the fellowship, edification, teaching and training of the believer, and for corporate worship and prayer. The church is to equip and strengthen the saints to send them OUT to the world to make disciples, then as many as are being saved are added to the church. When "the world" is actively recruited to come and experience worship with the church, then the church becomes worldly! As you can see, we're in deep trouble already!
I have a question for all of us. I'm glad Bellevue has retreated from association with Willow Creek, but there are so many more who are a part of it. Now, the question, why are Southern Baptist churches allowed to join an organization that is not Southern Baptist, and still remain in the SBA? Integrity is in question at Bellevue, but the integrity of our whole Association is at stake as well. Wake up church! It's time for all of us to wholeheartedly seek after the Lord -- in His Word. I'll finish with this: Daniel 11:32 -- ..."but the people who know their God will display strength and take action."
As our former Pastor always signed...
God is good!
Jesus is wonderful!
As a deacon at Bellevue and being somewhat close to the situation, I can tell you first hand that these issues have been brought to the proper people from the office of the pastor to the associate pastor, the chairman of the deacons, and other deacon officers both present and former. There are many deacons who know enough of the issues to want full disclosure by discussion within the body of deacons. That attempt has failed. The response is no. To continue on is said "to be against the pastor". If the church only knew of the attempts to keep this within the walls of the church, the congregation would have broken hearts just like mine.
None of us on this blog are perfect. We are all sinners saved by grace. One thing I know is that none of us should be afraid of the truth. May God bless anyone who is truly seeking truth.
Dear Anonymous (5:41pm),
You articulated my exact view of how the church is to function. Go out into the world to win them to Jesus, then bring them in for fellowship, teaching, and accountability. Well said my friend. Well said.
Also, my sincere thanks for your encouragement and kind words. It was a little hairy out here earlier today. Your post was welcomed with delight. Bless you my friend.
Sincerely,
Josh
Dear Anonymous (5:52pm),
Thank you for the information. You've struck at one of the key points here--getting this dealt with before the deacons has failed. From my understanding of Matthew 18, the only next step can be going to the entire church. Thank you for taking time to let us in on what you know from personal experience.
Best,
Josh
Josh,
First,"THANK YOU and GOD BLESS YOU!" for seeking and revealing truth! I pray that MANY more will come forward and BOLDLY take a stand.
Secondly, I would like to remind people of something that Dr.Rogers said many times -
"It is your DUTY to :
1. DEFEND
2. ATTEND and
3. COMMEND your church."
From what I am seeing and hearing inside the church, there is not much to COMMEND but there is much and a GREAT NEED to DEFEND. People do not need to leave Bellevue (THEIR church), but rather, they need to ATTEND their church and BOLDLY take a stand for truth and DEFEND the Body of Christ!
Thirdly, and I'll leave with this, another thing that Dr.Rogers said was if anyone wrote him a letter complaining and did not put their name on it, then it wasn't worth reading. So I'm putting my name : Laurah
Thank you Laurah. Your encouragement to me is very much appreciated and your exhortation to our brothers and sisters is fantastic. I praise God for the passion you have for our church, the body of Christ as a whole, and the truth. Thanks too for the name: it's always nice to have one to go along with a post.
Best,
Josh
I have loved the preaching of Dr. Gaines since I first heard him at Bellevue a few years ago. No one felt more blessed than my wife and I when it was finally official that he was to be our new pastor. I just knew he would hit the ground preaching the Gospel as only few men can do. That the emptiness we felt at the retirement of Dr. Rodgers would soon be filled by this great man of God. I was able to spend some personal time with Brother Steve and found him too good to be true. Then it began to happen.
At first it was just a feeling. After 50 years of marriage, we certainly know how to share our thoughts but this was different. Something was changing at our Church and we found it difficult to verbalize these strange and alarming feelings. We continued to feel the Holy Spirit working when Brother Steve preached but it was the feeling of manipulation that took away from the total worship experience.
At first we chose not to share our feeling with others. We tried very hard to accept the new worship music and suffered through the admonitions and guilt trips launched from the pulpit. Everyone is entitled to their own personality and we tried to believe that any rough edges could be worn away through love and understanding.
Little did we know that a planned and calculated culture change was underway at our beloved Church. This is not as simple as a casual whim by a new pastor. I am not an insider and I do not know when the decision was made but it is clear that certain leaders and people of power have acquiesced to this movement. I tremble when I read such things as Rick Warrens Toolbox and How to transition an established church by Chuck McAlister. Some of these things are nothing more than deceitful manifestos on how to crash the culture of an established church and keep it a secret from the membership.
I don’t know this blogger, in fact I hardly understand what blogging is about and this may not be the venue God would want us to use. I have not written letters or made calls but I do know that the subject of church transition is off limits with staff and administration and would be a waste of time not to mention being unfairly labeled.
I hope Dr. Gaines looks out across the congregation and know we are there. Hundreds of us and growing in number. We’re not soreheads or troublemakers. We are just old folks that choose not to have our church hi-jacked. We have been enlightened not by the leadership, not by this blog but by a large faction of friends and like minded members that also experienced that mysterious uneasy feeling. Folks that were silent and too trusting to speak out a few months ago are now talking in groups. Fissures are forming. Some will leave, some will stay and fight for the church that has been the center of their lives for 50-60 years. Getting answers from the pulpit would be appropriate but not necessary for me. It’s already as clear as a bell.
Dear One Little One,
"Just out of curiosity, what do you hope to accomplish with this blog?"
I refer you to the very first post on the blog.
"Do you feel that this is a Christ-exalting blog/discussion?"
Yes, but I think the answer to that is obvious: would I do this if I thought otherwise?
"If you get your way (whatever that is), what will you really have gained?"
Transparency and accountability. And since you ask what my way is, I'll say what's said in the first post on this blog: I have no agenda other than finding the truth and holding individuals accountable.
"Is this about what you want/need or about what God demands?"
Both actually: I want/need accountability and transparency and God demands it.
"Please think through all possible consequences before you go any further with this."
As I've said before, I've prayed, fasted over these issues. I've sought God's face.
May He have mercy on us all,
Sincerely,
Josh
I consider myself very involved in our church. I prayed for a pastor and believe that Pastor Steve is the pastor God appointed. As a church, we didn't just send people looking for a pastor, we prayed for our committee and believed that God would bring them to the man(warts and all). They brought us reports and thanked us for our prayers. According to their reports, they spent time away from the family and church family to do this work. I remember feeling like family pulled together by the loss of a grandfather.
Recently, people that I have respected from a distance are leaving the church over whatever is happening behind the scenes. Some of the people I have observed are people in leadership positions. I have to assume they have either lost their minds or they have legitimate concerns. I am leaning toward the latter. To confuse matters, we have church leadership pretending like nothing is happening(in regard to lay people), and troublemakers predicting the end of Bellevue.
Right now our church seems to be sick. I don’t have any facts but you know the old saying “if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck…it’s a duck”. Well something IS wrong. Why it is being kept in the dark, I don’t know. I am troubled that we are left to speculate among ourselves with no resolve. If this is about nothing, then name the names of the troublemakers in church and tell us to have nothing to do with them. If it's about something, then someone needs to do what the church teaches us to do...confess, repent, and then move on.
Here’s another sign of illness….the majority of posts to this site are anonymous. I remember seeing one post with a name(besides Josh). Wonder why? Why are we all protecting our identity in trying to resolve our issues within the church? What’s creating/created that atmosphere?
I wonder when the Grecian Jews complained about the Hebraic Jews overlooking their widows if they were called troublemakers for a while and then when the disciples got tired of hearing it they appointed men “full of the Spirit and wisdom” to make the problem go away? I don't think so...I think it was dealt with quickly. “So the word of God spread” Acts 6:7.
God help us.
Josh,
First of all let me thank for your efforts as our church wrestles with these issues. I am sad to say that much of our membership is not even aware of whats going on and even worse have no interest, feeling it is none of their business. How sad!
I have a couple of observations that I would like addressed:
1. We as a church body really never got to vote on our new pastor.He was merely presented to us as the search committies recommendation in a kind of yea or nea situation.Who in their right mind is going to stand up in a packed house of 7500 and say NO? Talk about the ultimate intimidation! If their were truly 100+ candidates for this job, who were they and why did the church membership not have the opportunity to hear some of these men preach? I think we call this a pulpit call. We then could have possibly voted by secret ballot creating a more fair and transparent situation.
2.I find it odd that our current Minister of Music left Bellevue to serve with Pastor Gaines at Gardendale FBC some 3 or 4 years ago only to have them both return. Being a long time servant within the Music Dept.And knowing how the politics within this specific ministry works I find this suspicious at best.
Coincidence?
Maybe!
Pre-determined?
?????????????
Josh,
First of all let me thank for your efforts as our church wrestles with these issues. I am sad to say that much of our membership is not even aware of whats going on and even worse have no interest, feeling it is none of their business. How sad!
I have a couple of observations that I would like addressed:
1. We as a church body really never got to vote on our new pastor.He was merely presented to us as the search committies recommendation in a kind of yea or nea situation.Who in their right mind is going to stand up in a packed house of 7500 and say NO? Talk about the ultimate intimidation! If their were truly 100+ candidates for this job, who were they and why did the church membership not have the opportunity to hear some of these men preach? I think we call this a pulpit call. We then could have possibly voted by secret ballot creating a more fair and transparent situation.
2.I find it odd that our current Minister of Music left Bellevue to serve with Pastor Gaines at Gardendale FBC some 3 or 4 years ago only to have them both return. Being a long time servant within the Music Dept.And knowing how the politics within this specific ministry works I find this suspicious at best.
Coincidence?
Maybe!
Pre-determined?
?????????????
I have wondered how Jamie could be called a minister of music. As I understood, Whitmire asked him to come to a job because, mainly, he liked him. When are we going to get back to being "called" to become a minister, instead of merely coming to a job and then that becomes being a "minister:
EWx. Ron Jerkins comes into the accounting business of the church and is now minister to visit the ill in the hospital. Give me a break.
I've been a faithful member of Bellevue for six years.When i heard that Steve Gaines was coming to Bellevue, I was very excited. The first few months were great and everything seemed positive for our church. I slowly began to hear rumors and stories that seemed stupid and tried to ignore them but reliable sources recently made me think otherwise. I will also say that it seems Steve Gaines promotes himself every Sunday by mentioning attendance and church growth.Those things made me start questioning a little more. I was surprised that he actually pulled out a chart and showed church growth since he's been pastor. Chuck Taylor had disappointed me extremely. He's knows what's going on and refuses to give straight answers. I've seen a majority of the emails and the questions asked are being bypassed with stats and quotes that are pointless.I think the quotes are being exaggerated. God's work will be accomplished even when problems are happening. The real cowards are the Pastor, Chuck Taylor, and others who know the truth but are simply ignoring it. I've also seen the service where Steve Gaines tells Gardendale he's coming to be Bellevue's pastor. In the video he states: " I figured I'd tick off the committee by telling them everything that was right about Gardendale and everything that's wrong with Bellevue." "I'm Serious" The pastor search committee knew his agenda and still proceded. Every church has it problems but what was so wrong with Bellevue?? Is it that we didn't clap when people were baptized or we didn't worship properly? There are facts that are true about our pastor and they must be brought to light. Mark Sharpe was thrown off the deacon list because he asked or disagreed with something. The attitude of " If you don't like it, leave." is absolutely crazy. I'm very confused about what to do and hope and pray these issues are resolved. I'm not trying to start issues but when things are really happening, things need to be said and done. I wish all the best for our church and can't wait to see what God is going to do.
Bellevue is a great church and I joined because I saw leadership that had integrity and cared about ME! Now I see people that sit and see the same thing I see going on in church and they excuse it. They see sermons being read from the pulpit, yet they say he's a great preacher. Those fill in the blank note sheets have got to go. Anyone who sat under the preaching of Dr. Rogers any length of time is way beyond the sermons we are getting. I hope people will stop ignoring what is going on around them and make a stand for integrity, honesty, transparency and a little compassion for the church body.
Don't the people see:
What Gaines says:
Dr. Whitmire wanted to retire.
Reality: Dr. Whitmire now works a full time job at the seminary, Interim in Dallas, and next GBC. Who's he kidding.
Gaines says we are breaking all records now that he is here!
Reality: we may have broken his records, but not Bellevue's. Check his numbers on Love Offering, Decisions and attendance.
Gaines says he needs to teach Bellevue how to pray and we need to become a praying church.
Reality says we ARE a praying church and we have been for many years. We have prayed every step of the way and we have been taught by a great preacher about prayer.
Gaines says he and Jamie are going to teach our church how to worship by changing the format of the services to appeal to more of Memphis.
Reality says he ran off the man that built the finest music program in the the SBC if not the world. We had a first class music program that could not be disputed! Under the direction of Dr. Whitmire, Bellevue worshiped the Lord with excellent music from all venues that appeals to everyone. I am blessed to have been able to be a part of the worship we once had.
Gaines says he was a Dr. Rogers lover and admirer.
Reality says we never heard Gaines mention the name of Dr. Rogers. He did not even bring the church together to pray for Dr. Rogers when he was dying.
Having been saved at Bellevue, having loved our Pastor Rogers, having studied God's word and serving the Lord with great leaders, I am greiving the loss of Dr. Rogers and the staff that have been severed from the church. I am also greiving the loss we have now with our church.
I'd like to encourage you to make the following links available on your website, especially the first one which promotes an upcoming conference in Charlotte NC. The audio documentary of abuse of pastoral power is chilling....
http://www.jeriwho.net/lambs/lambs.htm
http://www.bleatinglambs.org/conflict_resolution.html
http://www.bleatinglambs.org/susek-10_biggest_mistakes.html
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