***FLASH***
INFORMATION TO BEGIN COMING OUT ON 9-4-06
An interview will take place Sunday evening with a person who has first hand information of very questionable behavior from the administration.
I expect to have the interview blogged by Monday morning.
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25 comments:
I would think that is the case only to the same extent that speech is considered gossip.
In response to the second anonymous quote: I'm doing this because there are only a handful of people willing to get real information about questionable administrative practices into the hands of the people. I want to aid these men in doing the right thing.
I have not been through a split, but I have watched a situation incredibly similar to this play out in the past. It took years before the administration's questionable actions caught up. During that time the entire church, and a great many baby Christians suffered greatly. I wish to avoid such tragedy here.
Nothing has happened to prayer and fasting for change. I assure you I have done both during this process.
I would point out that it was a pious clergyman who avoided the wounded man in the story of the Good Samaritan. (I'm not accusing you of that.)
Yes, God help us to pray and fast more in these days, but God forbid that we should ignore what His Word says about confronting brothers who have erred and holding each other accountable.
I've made no appeal to traditions other than Scripture itself. It's the other side that appeals to tradition.
I seek to force nothing on anyone. I only seek to hold people accountable as is biblical.
I didn't realize I spoke as if I had knowledge beyond my years, and I really don't know how to reply to that other than to remember that Paul told Timothy not to let anyone despise him because of his age.
I am one of the ones who has been wronged. I've been wronged because members of an administration with spiritual authority over me are not behaving in a godly way. This effects me personally. That said, I am not taking up an offense.
None of these comments have been rhetorical in nature (and I'd ask which of my others have?) and none of this has been libelous.
I hope my sincerity and honesty here has shown you my wounded spirit.
Sincerely,
Josh
To the 3rd anonymous that starts out, “Dear Friend Josh.”
You are telling him that he is causing more wounds by bringing this up? Are you serious? I am glad you were not around when the Apostle Paul was or else we would not have some books of the Bible. We are to question the church when they seem to be getting off of the path of that God wants them to be. The Church and the leaders of the Church are not perfect. The leaders are humans and are not perfect. Just because a pastor of a deacon says or does something, it does not make it right. They are not divine. I think this website is just what the Church needs. There are things going on in the church that should not be going on and as a member, I have the right to know. It is my church, my 10% + pays the pastor and other things.
About the people jumping the fences: one of the people involved I ready admitted that they did it. You would be surprised what people do when their power is threatened. And what why were they going to that person’s house anyway? I cannot picture Dr. Rogers climbing over the fence. Dr. Gaines has a problem, and that problem is that he has let the power and money that go to his head. And Mr. Taylor fully supports him only because that is his guy, he is the one that brought him to BBC and Dr. Gaines gives him power and status in the church. It is said to see that power and greed is in the hearts of our church leaders. What Would Jesus Do? (I know He would not have climbed over that fence).
Thank you for the comment, Confused. Well said, well said.
Best,
Josh
JOSH
i just sent in a comment this one that starts out saying, "Comment to laura:"
i posted in the wrong topic,so it you would, don't publish it here. sorry
Got it Confused. Didn't get your second post until too late. I've deleted the orginal and posted it in the proper place. =)
Best,
Josh
This is to anonymous, 11:52am,Sept.3,2006.
No one is comparing Steve Gaines to Dr.Rogers. That is like comparing apples to lemons.
This is not about changes necessarily. There is a spiritual problem within the leadership.
Furthermore, you mentioned that Steve preaches the Word of God. He does, BUT you need to listen to EVERY word he says to make sure that it is scripturally sound. For instance, when Steve first came and preached his series on "I Believe",I was taken back by what I heard. Steve said in his sermon, "I Believe in Hell" (where Jesus talks of Lazarus and the rich man in hell),that "some people think that this story is true and some think that it's just a story, that it really didn't take place. WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. MAYBE IT'S BOTH." Can you tell me how can it be true and just a story at the same time?
NO CHRISTIAN, especially a pastor, should ever put a question or doubt before the Word of God!!
Second, I was unable to attend church one Sunday and turned on the service on tv. Again, I was SHOCKED by what I heard!! Steve said that "You are NOT born lost."(I believe the sermon title is "Pure in Heart"). He repeated this several times. He said that you are not lost until you choose to sin. Now I have a 4 yr.old. Let me say - He IS lost! He is safe by God's grace right now because he does not understand salvation, but there is an age of accountability (only the Holy Spirit knows when that is)when he will be held accountable to receive Christ. But He IS lost. We were all conceived in sin.
I go back to what Dr.Rogers said, "You don't take my word for it. Go to God's Word and then do what it says."
The people of Bellevue MUST NOT forget what we have been taught! Not necessarily by Dr.Rogers, but by God speaking through HIS HOLY WORD!
In response to anonymous of Sept. 3 at 11:52 AM. The one that starts out, “Why do you folks continue to compare…”
This is true: Dr. Gaines is not Dr. Rogers. But you must understand that Dr. Rogers was the pastor for a long time and helped the church to grow and was taking the church in a good direction. Dr. Gaines seems to be taking the church in another direction, his direction. He is doing what he personal wants; he does not seem to be interested in what the congregation wants. One of the members of the BFCT (Bellevue Fence Climbing Team) said something to the affect that the Bible says we most obey and respect the authority over us. (If I remember correctly that was said, if not then I beg the blog master to edit that part out). This is so true, but Dr. Gaines in not over us; Jesus Christ is head of the church and he is the only authority of the church. Why don’t Dr. Gaines and his followers try listening to Christ and to the congregation?
Who said change was bad? It is the way in which the changes have occurred. And yes, some of the changes have been bad. For example, joining Willow Creek. BBC has been against that for a long time and Dr. Gaines joined it without telling or consulting the congregation, and I bet he did not even tell the deacons. Everyone expected changes but the changes are coming too fast and some of the changes are taking BBC in a completely different direction. I have no doubt that Dr. Gaines love the Lord, but at the same time he should not be talking badly about someone behind their back.
“…stop the witch hunt”? “…for you will not succeed in destroying BBC”?
I wonder if that is what they told Luther when he nailed this 95 Thesis to the door of the church? This is not a witch hunt and the goal is not to destroy BBC. I believe this all started because the BBC has denied members the right to see the by-laws and some where even told they did not have any, which was a lie. We are just looking for some answers for a few things and as members we have the right to know what goes on in the church. No one is trying to kick Dr. Gaines out. He and some other staff members have done some questionable things and as leaders of the church, they are accountable to God and to the members of the church. We are just looking for some answers to a few simple questions. Just like the US government, the church needs checks and balances.
Dr. Gaines too is a good pastor but it is Dr. Gaines the man that I am worried about because as humans we make mistakes
Hi Laura,
Just curious where it is found in the Bible that teaches about the age of accountability?
Not to interfere in someone else's argument, but I'd offer up that Rom 5:13 says, "sin is not imputed when there is no law."
Earlier Paul pointed out that both those who know the law and those who do not are equally condemned:
Rom 2:12: "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves."
So those who know the law are condemned, and those who don't know it have a form of it (a general knowledge of right and wrong, or what Lewis called the Tao in some of his writing).
But we have to ask ourselves what happens to those who can't know the law. Little babies, young children, those with crippling mental challanges. They are incapable of knowing the law, thus I would argue that God does not impute sin to them.
Going further, I would note John 3:18 seems to indicate that the condemnation is no longer sin but the rejection of Christ's payment for our sins. This would comport with Rom 5's statements about grace abounding to all who died in Adam. If this is the case, then the people in question would certainly be saved, not having ever rejected Christ or chosen to live for themselves.
This one isn't my fight, so I'm out of it from here on (don't have time to debate theology and keep the blog up!). Just wanted to throw in my two cents.
Best to all,
Josh
Hi Anonymous,
I echo Josh's response. Thank you Josh.
Another passage that comes to mind is Romans 10:9-10 which says =
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
"For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved."
Salvation is a willful act of faith by an individual. First, they must understand that they are a sinner and they need forgiveness. Second, they must understand what repentance is - turning away from sin. Third, they must be able to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Boss of their life.
The Bible does not have specific verses for the 'age of accountability' that I can find.
However, the Bible does not have specific passages about not smoking. It does state though, how our bodies are to be the temple of Christ and how we should refrain from worldly behavior.
I also will mention David. After his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, Bathsheba gave birth to a son. God told David that his son would die. I am not sure how old the child was, but when David got news from his servants that his son died, he washed,changed garments and ate. David told his servants, "Can I bring him back again? I will go to him one day, but he cannot return to me."
I believe that only the Trinity knows when a child understands and is capable of making that willful decision of salvation. I do not think that there is a specific age. The Psalmist says, "I knew you in your mother's womb." God knows the make up of every child.
These are verses that stand out to me. They do not mention the word accountability, but I feel they go along the same line. This is just my opinion. I encourage you to research this in God's Word. I would like to know what you find.
I've said it many times -
"Don't take my word for it. Go
to God's Word and then do (and
believe) what It says."
- Dr.Rogers
I do not claim to have all the answers. There is alot I don't understand but I desire to learn more about our Great God and his Word!
Just a note : I don't take this as an argument, but rather someone who is trying to hold someone accountable for what they say. Thank you Anonymous and Josh!
Response to Laura,
The Bible states that, ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. This is directly tied to Adam, because of his sin, we are all now sinners even babies. This is mans nature, we were conceived in sin. Only by Gods grace, are we able to chose Him for salvation. We are "running from the light" " there is no good in us". The Bible tells us we are not seeking after Him. Only by His grace are we able to do these things. Do all babies go to heaven? I don't know. The bible is silent on this issue. Would I like to think that all babies do? yes I would. But I can only be sure of what the Scriptures say. Until we realize how totally sinful we are, we have no idea what a loving and gracious God we have.
Laura,
From your quotes of Bro. Steve, he is saying that everyone is born with a sin nature--"hearts are prone to wonder....prone towards sin...We're sinners by nature!! " Therefore, every child (except Jesus Christ) does NOT have the potential to be the Messiah. Jesus was not born with a sin nature as every person since the fall of Adam.
It seems to me that you and Bro. Steve ultimately believe the same thing. You just express it differently. He is saying that every child is born with a sin nature, a bent toward sin. But only when he willfully disobeys is he accountable for his sin and "lost."
Just my 2 cents.
Can Steve Gaines be considered a "pastor". He does not even answer his correspondence. Three letters and no response. First one is a year old by now. A pastor does not ignore his "flock".
in response to anonymous 2:23 p.m. on the 4th in the dispute with Laura...
The Bible is not silent on the question, "Do all babies go to heaven?"
I was immediately reminded of II Samuel 12 -- the passage the speaks of the death of David and Bathsheba's child. The whole passage should be read, but I'll quote v23 from the NAS -- "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." David believed he'd see his son again in heaven. He was a man after God's own heart, and he understood heaven and the resurrection of the saints. Psalm 17:15 -- "As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake." The Bible is and should always be our manual for faith and practice -- it speaks to everything we need to know.
Thanks for the hard work on the site, Josh.
Anonymous A
(Josh, you may add that signature to my previous post if it helps others to distinguish responses.)
Hi Anonymous,
Thanks for the offer, but there's no way for me to edit these posts. I can only approve or reject them as admin.
And on that note, the age of accountability discussion has been a good one, but I think it's starting to diverge from the blog topic. =)
That said, I'm going to ask that we shut that line of comments down. I praise God that people are delving into His Word of answers, but this just isn't on topic. I know you all understand. =)
Best,
Josh
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